18 replies to this topic

[Damion Sparhawk]

while the breakfast foods are rather tasty and fun, the current (and former) craze in Mechwarrior past and present is rather annoying to me. For one I remember how stupid it was back in the MW4 days when everyone ran energy boats and pop tarts and missiles and nobody ever got close enough to each other with any reasonable chance of doing anything effectively because of all the long range sniping going on that it just became boring for anyone that wasn't happy running one of the cookie cutter mechs. I see MWO rather rapidly slipping down the same path minus a few rather aggrivating exceptions, those being the ECM mechs and their streak packages which by themselves are a significant annoyance, but combined with pop tart snipers well, let's just say your best counter to the pop tart (LRM's) is suddenly useless, or virtually so.

Now, annoying as all this might be to those of us who prefer the up close and personal touch (and please don't go assuming I'm whining about splat cats or streak cats, my favorite builds typically involve an LBX) how do we address this problem in a way that doesn't entirely destroy the fun for those who enjoy and excel at playing these types of builds? That's an excellent question, personally I'd rather be killed by someone playing the mech because they enjoy it rather than because it happens to be the min/max build of the week, snipers are always going to be around, whether they're pop tart or just old fashioned peek and pop, but personally my biggest objection to pop tarting is simply that... you're attempting to fire a weapon with precision with a rocket up your rear end. Forgive me if I find this just a little implausible, but while electronics can compensate for a lot of things, I don't recall inertial dampeners being one of the primary features of mech combat, even with the best suspension in the universe all that vibration is going somewhere...

Another thing might be useful to solving two problems at once, or at least mitigating them to a manageable extent, the targetting reticle, or lock window, it's far to easy to pop up, snipe the target (since you know where it is) and then drop back into cover (or walk back, if you're not pop tarting) which is all well and good if someone is standing still, but if someone is moving wouldn't it make sense for the sensors to havea data correlation delay so that the reticle might not be precisely centered on the target, meaning that you might, actually, have to look before you shoot to make sure you're actually on target... (obviously you have to lead a moving target anyway, but why give someone a blind advantage?) the side benefit of this might go some steps toward reducing the efficacy of certain unsportsmanlike programs that some unethical mech pilots might abuse in order to give themselves an inhuman edge, but since I've no idea how those things function beyond heresay that's merely conjecture.

Again, I don't think it should be impossible to use this tactic, anymore than I think raven 3L's should be nerfed into oblivion (just more in line with the other mechs of it's weight class) I don't expect to ever be one of the best mechwarriors in MWO, but I do hope that regardless of whether you're the best or not, everyone that wants to play the game can do so, and have a good time doing it, playing the way they enjoy playing.

For those who want to take offense to this suggestion, as it in some way impinges upon your own viewpoint, feel free. This is merely a suggestion based on how I perceive the game at the moment and a perceived problem, or potential problem, and I don't realistically expect things to be changed based on my perception, I just know that it's chances of being changed should I -not- voice it are significantly lower

[Damion Sparhawk]

and not a single response, lame

[INSEkT L0GIC]

Damion Sparhawk, on 14 February 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

and not a single response, lame

Because it is not that big of an issue in this game?

Usually sending over a light or 2 to harass their backside while utilizing cover is enough to deter pop tarting.

Now, maps with less immediate cover, and/or if LRMs were still firing at the same near-vertical angles used in closed beta that negated cover, then it would be a completely different story.

Edited by INSEkT L0GIC, 14 February 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Toaster strudel.

[UraniumOverdose]

Every poptarting phract ive seen got shot right out of the sky.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Remember, serpentine patterns are your friends when you're getting shot at and can't retaliate.

[FromHell2k]

UraniumOverdose, on 14 February 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

Every poptarting phract ive seen got shot right out of the sky.

true, true. Superior firepower ftw.

[kiltymonroe]

Add cockpit shake to jumpjets, would solve this problem without making JJ terrible again.

[Corvus Antaka]

kiltymonroe, on 16 February 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Add cockpit shake to jumpjets, would solve this problem without making JJ terrible again.

This or forcing a 20/30 degree forward/reverse jump angle so jumping straight up and down is impossible. the 4 men behind ridge jumping up and down in unison was the biggest issue in mech4 and could be recreated here to create the very same **** poor gameplay.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 16 February 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[Vizan Thalt]

I love perspective and you have a good one. Here's the one from the pilot seat of a Stalker poptart. Most of the time I have to literally stop moving just so I can line up that shot on those light mechs on meth. ECM makes targeting a nightmare and if you have a light mech with ECM, there's no way of knowing you're behind until you shoot. Add to that poptarts are at the mercy of hunter medium and heavy mechs- Cic/Hunchy/Cent or Drag/K2's usually as well as the peek and seeks. So, it isn't like we a sittng back and just whimically choosing to shoot you. But, it is a different perspective, one you didn't mention having.

Lately, I have taken to LOS firing due to the ECM umbrellas. I can see target, can't lock, but if I can see you, I can still hit you, but you can hit me too. As a poptarter, I am annoyed by the power down tactic as the LRMs are inbound and it somewho protects the mech from damage from the LRMs, what's up with that?

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

I had a drop last night with 6 Cataphracts in it, 4 were 3D pop-tarts, one was a 4X and the last was my 1X. The 3d's had 4 kills in a matter of minutes, 6 after just 4 minutes, and I had to steel one of the kills to get any points. Should we all put up posts about how OP they are, how they are killing the game, how lame they are , and how they are the new splatcat? NO...

With all things in MWO, it's just a passing fad. At some point the flavor of the month with change and you'll have something else to ***** about. My advice with all these cheese builds is to adapt, change how you are playing. To many players are so rigid in how they play that they can't adapt and over come. They play the same way every drop with mixed results and when you change a variable in the game (like pop-tarts), instead of adapting you complain. Quit your belly aching and figure out how to beat them. I posted before about this fact, any cheese build has a weakness, the pop-tart 3D gave up something to be able to pack all that into it, so figure it out and kill it!

[Donas]

Werewolf486, on 16 February 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

I had a drop last night with 6 Cataphracts in it, 4 were 3D pop-tarts, one was a 4X and the last was my 1X. The 3d's had 4 kills in a matter of minutes, 6 after just 4 minutes

Sounds to me like those four guys new eachother and were concentrating fire. Teamwork like that is going to be difficult to overcome in any PuG, even if its 4 commandos.

Damion Sparhawk, on 12 February 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Another thing might be useful to solving two problems at once, or at least mitigating them to a manageable extent, the targetting reticle, or lock window, it's far to easy to pop up, snipe the target (since you know where it is) and then drop back into cover (or walk back, if you're not pop tarting) which is all well and good if someone is standing still, but if someone is moving wouldn't it make sense for the sensors to havea data correlation delay so that the reticle might not be precisely centered on the target, meaning that you might, actually, have to look before you shoot to make sure you're actually on target...

If I understand the game mechanic correctly, if you are able to maintain your target reticle and info on a target once he has passed out of your mechs line of sight, the reason is that one of your teammates still has line of sight, and your mechs are all communicating with eachother. Your teammate is spotting for you. Preciselt the same mechanic that would allow you to pepper the sniper with LRM's while he is behind cover.

Edited by Donas, 16 February 2013 - 08:01 AM.

[Stringburka]

The only poptars I've seen are cataphract 3Ds which are dangerous if massed but very fragile (shoot at right arm they go BOOM) and some random lights with single PPCs which just aren't an issue.

[Woska]

I've noticed very little in the way of pop tart tactics. And most of those that I have noticed have been fairly short range engagements, often in open terrain.

Sorry, it's just not as much of an issue as you're making it sound.

[Damion Sparhawk]

it's not an enormous problem, however it -is- a reason many people pretty much quit MW4, which imho makes it a potential problem for the game, on top of that, ECM throws another wrench in the pop tart problem in that a team of pop tarts with one ECM mech shielding them become veritably immune to LRM's (at least without dumb firing in a position to do so which is problematic at best) and yes, it's not something that's impossible to counter, but just like the raven 3L is for some reason far more powerful than any other light mech, it's something that could be exploited, and has been exploited excessively in the past to the detriment of the MW4 title.
For the stalker pilot, that's not really pop tarting, that's just rocker sniping (shoot hide recover shoot) pop tarting requires jump jets, though it's easy to confuse the two in the heat of conflict and yelling 'pop tart' works just fine to announce the presence of a sniper of any breed.

[Arisaema]

I was having fun with pop-tarts last night when they would stay int he same spot and jump up, proceed to get slammed with double ERPPC blasts, drop back down, and then pop up again in the same place.

Not that hard to deal with.

[focuspark]

Arisaema, on 21 February 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

I was having fun with pop-tarts last night when they would stay int he same spot and jump up, proceed to get slammed with double ERPPC blasts, drop back down, and then pop up again in the same place.

Not that hard to deal with.

They're also fun to sneak up on as they're usually concerned with the wall in front of them. I've managed to get up close behind a poptarting 'phract with a splatcat and ended his day quite quickly.

[Rawrshuga]

I try to think of them as Clay Pigeons. PULL! BANG! SPLAT!

But okay to address the argument. Perhaps you have a point. In the TT game that was harder to shoot while jumping, and now that jumpjets are not useless pieces of crap anymore we can finally access their effect of gameplay. I don't play a jump mech (because I when I started they were pieces of crap) so I don't know how hard or easy it is to aim whilst in the air. I don't mean this as an aiming speed issue, I mean it as a stability issue. Is the mech as stable in the air as it is on the ground?

Presumably if you're jetting up into the air for a few seconds the pilot would have to deal with a few things, amongst them G-forces, and the rattling of his mech caused by the jumpjets. So perhaps that ought to be some cockpit shudder whilst jumpjetting. Like I said, I've never used the jumpjets so I can't say whether it's too easy or not, and I prefer to judge these things from personal experience.

[Adridos]

Vizan Thalt, on 16 February 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Here's the one from the pilot seat of a Stalker poptart.

Did you fill your Stalker with helium or something?

AFAIK, Stalker is not JJ compatible and can't be used in a pop-tard/t manouver. That is hiding behind a hill/building, firing your JJs, shooting someone and then falling down, making for an effective and hard to deal with sniper tactic.