48 replies to this topic

[Jet Black Dog]

the original battletech board game was pretty clear an autocannon was , as the name, a rapid-firing weapon.
Most of the early fiction ( grey death legion books, hoorah ) - stuck with that.

I just wanted to point out:
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Autocannon
"] The rate of fire of a modern autocannon ranges from 90 rounds per minute (British RARDEN) to 2,500 rounds per minute (GIAT 30). Systems with multiple barrels can have rates of fire over 9,000 (GSh-6-23) rounds per minute.^[1]"

the arguable most famous autocannon, GAU-8 Avenger


from a play balance POV, lasers have to be held on target - autocannons beinga sustained burst, doing damage with a stream of explosive/AP shells, would be only fair - since the original BT weapons balance was based on both weapons doing their damage to a single point target ( which assumes very good gunnery - as now required with lasers - against a moving target)

Just some random thoughts.
Good Hunting, Mercier ( honey badger )

Edited by Mercier, 21 February 2013 - 07:36 AM.

[buttmonkey]

autocannons would be nice.
also there really should be a ballistic to fill the massive gap between machine guns (1.5tons) and the ac2 (6 tons i think)

[Escef]

"Rapid" is a very relative term. Most modern tanks have autocannons. It is just a cannon with an autoloader.

[Redshift2k5]

Ignoring the "fluff" and looking at game mechanics, you see that autocannons encompass all their damage in a single-hit to a single-location. Turning them into giant assault rifles would change that game mechanic.

Of course, lasers were changed from 'all damage/one location' to a 'damage over time to multiple locations', and this was done on purpose to make lasers weaker and less accurate, specifically to make them less effective.

[Mechteric]

I'd like to see some variation in autocannons so you could choose a particular AC20 model that fires rapidly with smaller rounds, or choose a slower one with larger rounds. That way you can pick the one that fits your style. For instance the slower firing one is best for hitting hard and moving on, like on a YenLoWang. But with an Atlas you may want one that continuously lays down fire in which case rapid firing may suit that better.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 21 February 2013 - 07:10 AM.

[Jet Black Dog]

Redshift2k5, on 21 February 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Ignoring the "fluff" and looking at game mechanics, you see that autocannons encompass all their damage in a single-hit to a single-location. Turning them into giant assault rifles would change that game mechanic.

Of course, lasers were changed from 'all damage/one location' to a 'damage over time to multiple locations', and this was done on purpose to make lasers weaker and less accurate, specifically to make them less effective.

Concur on both points, but I don't think lasers ever WERE "OP" vis-a-vis AC's - did you? Apparently someone did -
and of course armor to damage ratio is quite different than the board game - I'm always slow to interfere with a game balance that has worked for so long, and they don't share that concern - on the other hand, ac's already have an ammo advantage over the old game ( i personally never thought ac-20's had just 5 big shells per ton, but - but and but - a lot of cooks have been in this stew now, designers, writers, and computer games ).
there's alot of threads and forums, Redfshift if you can point me at when the dev's decided to 'lessen' lasers, I'd greatly appreciate it.

ps :

Escef, on 21 February 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

"Rapid" is a very relative term. Most modern tanks have autocannons. It is just a cannon with an autoloader.

"
Definition

The precise definition of an autocannon is often confusing, as there are other weapons which fulfill much of the criteria that define it, however a useful definition is that an autocannon is a large machine gun that fires an armor piercing, explosive, or other-filled shell, whereas a true machine gun fires a solid bullet only. Like the machine gun, an autocannon is designed for fully automatic fire.

Another weapon that is similar to the autocannon is the automatic grenade launcher. This is usually mounted on a tripod or on a vehicle and is capable of firing explosive shells at a high rate of fire. The main item of distinction is that they fire very low velocity ammunition.

Larger forms of artillery have been fitted with autoloaders, which are somewhat different."

Edited by Mercier, 21 February 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Khobai]

Autocannons are fine how they are in MWO. Its better that they do all their damage at once. They just need to buff autocannons so they compete with the newly buffed PPCs. Autocannons are so not worth the tonnage right now.

[Voridan Atreides]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Autocannons are so not worth the tonnage right now.

Tell me that when I AC/20 your engine out of your CT.

[BritishJesus]

Yeah. What you're talking about are Rotary AutoCannons. They'll might get here eventually. Also they come in the standard 2/5/10/20 also.

http://www.sarna.net...tary_Autocannon

[ferranis]

You can nevver have enugh dakka. Ask teh humies on tde otther side of me dakkaphract - haha

[Jet Black Dog]

BritishJesus, on 21 February 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

Yeah. What you're talking about are Rotary AutoCannons. They'll might get here eventually. Also they come in the standard 2/5/10/20 also.

http://www.sarna.net...tary_Autocannon

from your own site, sir; under autocannon's link...
"  Autocannon:
An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts"
I rest my case, sir, AC's were NEVER 'cannons' firing a single shell.
I realize this is much an aesthetic take as anything else, and yes, there is a question of balance if the AC requires the same level of gunnery skill as a laser.
And I'm not trying to convince anyone, just a matter of conversation.
I also think med mechs should be trial mechs, lol, they are supposed to be the most common aren't they ? LOL

Edited by Mercier, 21 February 2013 - 07:48 AM.

[Jack Lazarus]

That's because the link he gave you was for rotary autocannons, which is what he says you're talking about, and is not in the game. You didn't read what he was was really saying, which isn't in the link - it's the fact that rapid is a relative term and can mean 'once every few seconds' just as much as it can mean '5000 times a minute'

Any cannon that loads automatically from a magazine, is an automatic cannon, or autocannon. The main gun on an AMX, for example, is an autocannon, because it loads automatically from a magazine (drum). It is not rotary or rapid-fire (compared to a machine gun). Most military cannons today are autocannons, from big to small, the same way that most hand-held military weapons are automatic. Technological advancement.

edited post for messy formatting and a quote that didn't work out.

Edited by Jack Lazarus, 21 February 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[Escef]

Mercier, you seem to focus a lot of your definition on the word "rapid". Which I will again say is a very relative term. In this case, "rapid" is in comparison to manual loading. Which can still mean quite slow. And full automatic fire does not mean fast, it just means that you do not have to release the trigger to take another shot.

[BritishJesus]

Mercier, on 21 February 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

from your own site, sir; under autocannon's link...
" Autocannon:
An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts"
I rest my case, sir, AC's were NEVER 'cannons' firing a single shell.
I realize this is much an aesthetic take as anything else, and yes, there is a question of balance if the AC requires the same level of gunnery skill as a laser.
And I'm not trying to convince anyone, just a matter of conversation.
I also think med mechs should be trial mechs, lol, they are supposed to be the most common aren't they ? LOL

Like the others have said, the standard AC's in this game are more or less modern tank guns with auto-loaders, for large caliber guns they are relatively "rapid" fire. To quote sarna again,

Quote

Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage vs armor.^[1] The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors.

Damage is done vs. armor. That's how the AC's get their ratings.

Escef, on 21 February 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Mercier, you seem to focus a lot of your definition on the word "rapid". Which I will again say is a very relative term. In this case, "rapid" is in comparison to manual loading. Which can still mean quite slow. And full automatic fire does not mean fast, it just means that you do not have to release the trigger to take another shot.

This exactly. You beat me to it.

Edited by BritishJesus, 21 February 2013 - 08:46 AM.

[miscreant]

Ultra AC5's are gre...."JAMMED".....at, but.."JAMMED" they sure do..."JAMMED"....get jammed a lot.

[Khobai]

Quote

Tell me that when I AC/20 your engine out of your CT.

I can do the same thing to you with two ERPPCs, they weigh less, have three times the range, don't use ammo (or risk ammo explosions), disrupt ecm, have a much faster projectile speed, AND fire faster. The only downside is the heat but two ERPPCs is still completely manageable.

Autocannons are absurdly outclassed by PPCs now. There is no reason to use standard autocannons anymore because of the horrendous weight and critical slot usage. UAC/5s are still okay though.

Autocannons still need buffs to projectile speed, ammo per ton, heat, and rate of fire. Also I really liked the LB10X critical hit buff... it just needs to do more damage.

Edited by Khobai, 21 February 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Utilyan]

IT IS POSSIBLE. To do AC's what they did to machine guns. (not in terms of nerf or buff)

What they did is streach the ammo out. So imagine you got a AC/10 with 30 ammo, expand it to ac/10 300 ammo.

Think about this. (I might need a TT-lawyer's and mathematician's help)

I'm going to pressume a action in TT represents like a window of time. Like maybe it represents 10 secs.


In 10 seconds how many AC/10 shots do you get? What it is, Is one thing.......

WHAT IT OUGHT TO BE, might be 10 shots in 10 seconds, each bullet doing 1 pt. of damage. THIS MEANS AC/10.

Work out the proportion based on TT's time table. If its too fast..... 5 shots in 10 seconds.....again the max damage within 10 seconds (or whatever is a TT round) can only be a max of 10.

Then you adjust all weapons like wise....... That could make a very live battlefield

Medium Laser start shooting like pew pew pew pew 20 times in their 10-sec window just to give a output of 5 damage.

We would see a very DIFFER battle going that would veer a bit from past mechwarrior games BUT might actually come closer to TT and the fantasy itself.

[Roland]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Autocannons are so not worth the tonnage right now.

And... false.

[Dishevel]

Jack Lazarus, on 21 February 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

That's because the link he gave you was for rotary autocannons, which is what he says you're talking about, and is not in the game. You didn't read what he was was really saying, which isn't in the link - it's the fact that rapid is a relative term and can mean 'once every few seconds' just as much as it can mean '5000 times a minute'

Any cannon that loads automatically from a magazine, is an automatic cannon, or autocannon. The main gun on an AMX, for example, is an autocannon, because it loads automatically from a magazine (drum). It is not rotary or rapid-fire (compared to a machine gun). Most military cannons today are autocannons, from big to small, the same way that most hand-held military weapons are automatic. Technological advancement.

edited post for messy formatting and a quote that didn't work out.

If I could launch 400mm projectiles out to 30,000 meters or so once every 10 seconds I would consider that "Rapid".

[Madw0lf]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I can do the same thing to you with two ERPPCs, they weigh less, have three times the range, don't use ammo (or risk ammo explosions), disrupt ecm, have a much faster projectile speed, AND fire faster. The only downside is the heat but two ERPPCs is still completely manageable.

Autocannons are absurdly outclassed by PPCs now. There is no reason to use standard autocannons anymore because of the horrendous weight and critical slot usage. UAC/5s are still okay though.

Autocannons still need buffs to projectile speed, ammo per ton, heat, and rate of fire. Also I really liked the LB10X critical hit buff... it just needs to do more damage.

In theory sure, but I sure cant get the performance curve out of my 4P with PPCs as I can my 4G with an AC20....