21 replies to this topic

[HammerForge]

OK, yesterday I was reading through a ECM QQ thread and read something I wanted to discuss on it's own.

Please note that this is NOT an ECM QQ thread, and if you want to turn this into one, think again, and go do something else please.

That out of the way, someone said to the effect of "you can tell how OP ECM is because all Raven 3Ls and Atlas D-DCs have ECM." Now on the face of that comment, that makes some amount of sense, if there was something just as good that you could do with that 1.5 ton/2 crits of space, you would see some variety. Then I actually thought about my Raven 3L...what would I do with the space that would make any difference what so ever on the battle field? I struggle to come up with ANYTHING that would really be worth much at all. My build also goes something like:

3 ML
2 SSRMs (w/ enough ammo that I never run out)
Near full armor
Endo Steel
BAP
280 XL engine

and that seems to be pretty standard, some don't run BAP and throw the 295 XL in, which is negligible difference in speed in the grand scheme of things and I like some of the little things BAP does. All I could think of was to up the engine, and maybe add another heat sink so I have even less heat issues on the hot maps, but that doesn't add much at all to the survivability or damage potential of the mech.

I haven't yet played with any of the other ECM mechs, so someone else can bring what the standard is for them into this, but for this thread, if ECM was Nerfed to the point of being useless, what would you replace it with, and do you think that would make a significant change to the build in any way?

[Juree Riggd]

Nobody ever takes BAP and I use it to my advantage. Lone capping a base? Find a good place to hide in that square and shut down. They never find you and they cry bug every single time they come back to base to stop the base cap, find nobody here, and then leave thinking I ran off, only to have the cap start again as soon as they step out of the box.

[Belorion]

I would replace the Raven 3L ECM with...


a Jenner.

[HammerForge]

Belorion, on 11 April 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

I would replace the Raven 3L ECM with...


a Jenner.

Missing the point, you are.

[Ryvucz]

For not being an ECM QQ thread, you've mentioned it numerous times.

6?

[Tie Ma]

thats the biggest problem with ECM right now. is that if you are a DDC or a Raven 3L there is absolutly no reason not to take it.

or to take something else over it. at 1.5 tons it might as well be a free passive ability.

Edited by Tie Ma, 11 April 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Sybreed]

replace ECM with?

Answer: MOAR ECM

[Lightfoot]

BAP that works. We have a nerfed version in MWO. BAP should boost sensor contact of mechs with ECM. BAP boosts sensor abilities.

[Sephlock]

Juree Riggd, on 11 April 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Nobody ever takes BAP and I use it to my advantage. Lone capping a base? Find a good place to hide in that square and shut down. They never find you and they cry bug every single time they come back to base to stop the base cap, find nobody here, and then leave thinking I ran off, only to have the cap start again as soon as they step out of the box.

Ah, so you CAN cap while shut down. I never bothered to test that out .

[Zylo]

HammerForge, on 11 April 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Missing the point, you are.

He's right though, the only real advantage the 3L has over the Jenner is the ability to carry ECM. The past issue with hitboxes has been corrected (I actually prefer the new hitboxes as a raven pilot as I can spread damage better).

Lets look at the facts though, in this case comparing the Jenner D to the Raven 3L:

Raven 3L
Max engine = 295XL
Energy hardpoints = 3
Missile hardpoints = 2
Jumpjets allowed = 0
ECM allowed = Yes

Jenner D
Max engine = 300XL
Energy hardpoints = 4
Missile hardpoints = 2
Jumpjets allowed = 5
ECM allowed = No

[Teralitha]

HammerForge, on 11 April 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

OK, yesterday I was reading through a ECM QQ thread and read something I wanted to discuss on it's own.

Please note that this is NOT an ECM QQ thread, and if you want to turn this into one, think again, and go do something else please.

That out of the way, someone said to the effect of "you can tell how OP ECM is because all Raven 3Ls and Atlas D-DCs have ECM." Now on the face of that comment, that makes some amount of sense, if there was something just as good that you could do with that 1.5 ton/2 crits of space, you would see some variety. Then I actually thought about my Raven 3L...what would I do with the space that would make any difference what so ever on the battle field? I struggle to come up with ANYTHING that would really be worth much at all. My build also goes something like:

3 ML
2 SSRMs (w/ enough ammo that I never run out)
Near full armor
Endo Steel
BAP
280 XL engine

and that seems to be pretty standard, some don't run BAP and throw the 295 XL in, which is negligible difference in speed in the grand scheme of things and I like some of the little things BAP does. All I could think of was to up the engine, and maybe add another heat sink so I have even less heat issues on the hot maps, but that doesn't add much at all to the survivability or damage potential of the mech.

I haven't yet played with any of the other ECM mechs, so someone else can bring what the standard is for them into this, but for this thread, if ECM was Nerfed to the point of being useless, what would you replace it with, and do you think that would make a significant change to the build in any way?

Well ah... the most sensible answer would be to add AMS.

[Vermaxx]

3ML
2SSRM
Endo
FF
XL 275
ECM
Heatsinks

If I didn't have the ECM, I'd have...more heatsinks.

[Mahws]

Just to wig people out:
Spider-5D
ECM
XL255
3xMPL
2 JJ
Full armor

If I couldn't take the ECM? AMS is useless, anyone who takes LRM boats them, so it's no good against them and against SSRM/SRM it's even worse. BAP is only really worth the weight for LRM boats. CASE is useless even with ammo and no XL.

Another couple of JJ I guess. Maybe a LL and two ML. Certainly not another utility item as unlike the ECM they're highly situational in value and aren't an instant improvement to any mech.

[HammerForge]

Ryvucz, on 11 April 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

For not being an ECM QQ thread, you've mentioned it numerous times.

6?

Yes, in order to ask a question about a hypothetical situation and comment about ECM, I have to mention it...that however does not make this a QQ thread...so your point is?

Zylo, on 11 April 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

He's right though, the only real advantage the 3L has over the Jenner is the ability to carry ECM. The past issue with hitboxes has been corrected (I actually prefer the new hitboxes as a raven pilot as I can spread damage better).

Lets look at the facts though, in this case comparing the Jenner D to the Raven 3L:

Raven 3L
Max engine = 295XL
Energy hardpoints = 3
Missile hardpoints = 2
Jumpjets allowed = 0
ECM allowed = Yes

Jenner D
Max engine = 300XL
Energy hardpoints = 4
Missile hardpoints = 2
Jumpjets allowed = 5
ECM allowed = No

Yes, he's right, heck in the hands of a good pilot, the Jenner is a better pick than the Raven is if all you are worried about is damage output. It has more weapons, I it can go faster, and with JJs it is much more maneuverable, but since I asked what would you replace 1.5 tons and 2 crits worth of space on a raven with, saying a Jenner isn't really on point.

Teralitha, on 11 April 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Well ah... the most sensible answer would be to add AMS.

Well, I guess it adds to the survivability, I mean I've not had an issue with missiles in fast lights like the commandos and jenners that don't have ECM, but it would certainly help your comrades if you stuck around them instead of scouting.

[Ryvucz]

HammerForge, on 11 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

Yes, in order to ask a question about a hypothetical situation and comment about ECM, I have to mention it...that however does not make this a QQ thread...so your point is?

Looks like a QQ thread.

[Nutlink]

Hurray for cookie cutter loadouts!

[Vrekgar]

HammerForge, on 11 April 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

OK, yesterday I was reading through a ECM QQ thread and read something I wanted to discuss on it's own.

Please note that this is NOT an ECM QQ thread, and if you want to turn this into one, think again, and go do something else please.

That out of the way, someone said to the effect of "you can tell how OP ECM is because all Raven 3Ls and Atlas D-DCs have ECM." Now on the face of that comment, that makes some amount of sense, if there was something just as good that you could do with that 1.5 ton/2 crits of space, you would see some variety. Then I actually thought about my Raven 3L...what would I do with the space that would make any difference what so ever on the battle field? I struggle to come up with ANYTHING that would really be worth much at all. My build also goes something like:

3 ML
2 SSRMs (w/ enough ammo that I never run out)
Near full armor
Endo Steel
BAP
280 XL engine

and that seems to be pretty standard, some don't run BAP and throw the 295 XL in, which is negligible difference in speed in the grand scheme of things and I like some of the little things BAP does. All I could think of was to up the engine, and maybe add another heat sink so I have even less heat issues on the hot maps, but that doesn't add much at all to the survivability or damage potential of the mech.

I haven't yet played with any of the other ECM mechs, so someone else can bring what the standard is for them into this, but for this thread, if ECM was Nerfed to the point of being useless, what would you replace it with, and do you think that would make a significant change to the build in any way?

Replace Guardian ECM with ACTUAL Guardian ECM.

Right now its doing the job of 4 systems. Guardian, Angel, Stealth, Nullsig.

Make each 1.5 tons and 2 crits each.

BAM, Problem solved.

The best arguement against the current ECM mechanic is that it does TOO MUCH for such a small investment. It also makes any other system in its spectrum invalid because it already does their job!

With the other 3 systems in the game you can also parcel out some of them to other less optimal mech designs, making them more viable!

This would encourage build diversity AND introduce a saner fair penalty for running the full suite of ECM.

[General Taskeen]

Vrekgar, on 11 April 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

Replace Guardian ECM with ACTUAL Guardian ECM.

Right now its doing the job of 4 systems. Guardian, Angel, Stealth, Nullsig.

Make each 1.5 tons and 2 crits each.

BAM, Problem solved.

The best arguement against the current ECM mechanic is that it does TOO MUCH for such a small investment. It also makes any other system in its spectrum invalid because it already does their job!

With the other 3 systems in the game you can also parcel out some of them to other less optimal mech designs, making them more viable!

This would encourage build diversity AND introduce a saner fair penalty for running the full suite of ECM.

This guy gets it and does not suffer from Stockholm Syndrome. Release your hostages PGI.

[Silentium]

Hmmmm. A heat sink? Maybe full armor? Hard to say. I preferred the 6 shooter over the streaks myself, so I guess more ammo.

[Haitchpeasauce]

All the big ECM threads are far from QQ. They contain posts saying EXACTLY THE SAME SORT OF THING AS THIS ONE.

Everything that can be said about ECM has been said, and said well. They don't make a difference.


P.S. Recent changes have shown that ECM's influence on the game is also affected by many other external factors: the power of missiles, the effectiveness of lasers and ballistics, the average tonnages of mechs, the size of maps, the number of mechs per team, weapon convergence, mech hitboxes. At this stage the 3L is a more powerful light-vs-light mech for not just ECM, but for the combination of ECM + speed + torso + hitboxes + hardpoints + SSRM.

Edited by Haitchpeasauce, 11 April 2013 - 09:19 PM.