33 replies to this topic

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

like no knockdown, is lag shield also a feature for lightwarrior online? should i just buy a AS7-3L now?

[Ranek Blackstone]

Knock down was taken out because it was broken and needed fixing, and will be back in for the Phase 3 netcode fixes.

Phase 2 is going to be state rewind, and will strip even more of the lag sheild.

Edited by Ranek Blackstone, 23 February 2013 - 07:12 PM.

[Spitz]

Yes this is starting to get very sad. I can understand short term problems but this is a bit much. Playing today and a raven attacks a group of heavies. 4 heavies make their shots and as usual raven moves off without worrying about getting destroyed. A light should not be able to go toe to toe with a heavy trading shots and come out with less damage. And to go against 4 heavies without even caring to dodge shots completely screwed up. They should pulled the raven the first patch they put it in and kept it out until they could fix the problems. Same with other light mechs that are completely off scale.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Ranek Blackstone, on 23 February 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Knock down was taken out because it was broken and needed fixing, and will be back in for the Phase 3 netcode fixes.

Phase 2 is going to be state rewind, and will strip even more of the lag sheild.

are you by chance a blue lantern?

[Gaan Cathal]

Spitz, on 23 February 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

Yes this is starting to get very sad. I can understand short term problems but this is a bit much. Playing today and a raven attacks a group of heavies. 4 heavies make their shots and as usual raven moves off without worrying about getting destroyed. A light should not be able to go toe to toe with a heavy trading shots and come out with less damage. And to go against 4 heavies without even caring to dodge shots completely screwed up. They should pulled the raven the first patch they put it in and kept it out until they could fix the problems. Same with other light mechs that are completely off scale.

The first patch they put the Raven in it was a joke. Most people didn't even know they existed until the ECM patch hit, and then suddenly all the 'hitbox is fubar' rants (no evidence for) transferred from the Jenner to the Raven as did the Lagshield rants (was a problem). The Lagshield has been largely cleared up at this point, insofar as there is a certain degree of 'normal' lag, which can mean where you see the target is not necessarily exactly where the target is, however this applies to any reasonably fast mech (largely ping-dependant on the part of the shooter).

What you describe in your scenario is something I do a lot, I barrel in on an enemy group (from the flank), slam one with my MLAS and an SRM volley, then turn off, usually I get in another laser blast before I bail out of view. Generally I get a grazing of laser fire, usually I attract some ballistics fire too. About 40-60 hit-miss ratio on those, so 60% of the time I get out of this attack run with yellowed armour on my defensive (side I turned into them) side. Presuming that happens, I turn the other way on the next attack run, producing the same result. On the 40% of times they do hit me, I tend to take a hefty chunk of damage (usually to a side torso or wing, the smart opposition plug me in a leg) and need to be more careful about which side I expose in future attacks. If it's a dual-AC/20 Cattie, or a trip-Gauss Ilya I stand a very good chance of loosing armour on a compartment, putting it more or less a one-hit-kill state.

Why do I single out high damage ballistics volleys there? Because once you breach the invisible Elo barrier where the opposition's aim is better than your jinking, they hit like a freight train and take you apart in moments. Lasers, however, even in high-damage volleys, will spread their damage across the opponent. 40 damage (4 LPLAS, perfectly managable for, say, an AS7-RS) will spread, generally, over CT, ST, Arm and Leg, for (average) 10 damage per compartment. That's only yellow armour, in reality it is unlikely every laser tick hits, especially from the more popular non-pulse variants. This is why you see light mechs duck and weave in and out of brawls with apparently minimal damage, the damage is spread all over their mech. Compare the difference in paperdoll change when your heavy (say...Cataphract) is hit with an SRM6 at 268m (near max, everything turns a little yellow) to 3m (point black, CT to orange).

In short, you appear to want light mechs to be stripped of their only defence (speed/maneuverability). This is a common reaction to anything that uses speed as a defence, even in non-twitch games (cross ref. the Nano Age in Eve), and seems to draw ire only slightly less than EWAR effects (MWO ECM, Eve EWAR, Stun/Daze effects in Any MMO Ever). However, if it becomes so easy (assisted aiming?) to land all that damage on me in my light on my first attack run that you can do it 90% of the time, then why implement light mechs at all? There's no economic model to provide an incentive there, unless you want to punish new players even more than trial mechs already do. Scouting just isn't a big enough thing in MWO to dedicate a mech than can be casually one-shotted to, and frankly even if it was, hunter-killer/striker lights are still a legitimate mech.

TL:DR - You missed.

[Hastega]

As another poster stated in a similar thread, anyone who thinks Lights are invincible is using Lasers or SRMs. I've been one-shot by AC20s, critically beaten by tagged LRM strikes, torso sniped by quad PPCs, or blasted to smithereens by UACs. The high speed of lights coupled with normal lag makes them hard to track, but ballistics and lockons have no problems in landing blows. If lights were as invincible as people think, light vs light battles with medium pulse lasers would never end, but they do. It's the guys using medium lasers and doing little to no steady damage on components that can't score a kill. SRMs will even miss the target entirely, a batch of 6 rockets might have a 50% accuracy without an Artemis system, yet my SSRM2s annihilate lights.

TL:DR - You missed.

[Tempered]

I don't really see the lag shield any more. I do still see a problem with lights in general, and with ssrms in particular. I think most heavies and assaults need a tweek to torso turning speed and range, except for the catapult of course. The cataphract in particular is extremely vulnerable to lights due to slow torso speed and little twist range.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

i missed? no ****. i could tell that by the resounding pop of my shot impacting them and doing no damage that i needed to be aiming for the invisible target.

and i dont want to take your speed, or whatever the **** it is you think makes you so good. I just want it so that when i hit somebody, it does damage. without having to aim 5-10 meters in front of them on top of compensating for distance and speed. i've gotten headshots on fast mechs from shots that completely miss the target, intersect, and keep going.

and trust me, once they fix this whole laggy model business there's going to be all kinds of crying on the forums

[M3atloaf]

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

and trust me, once they fix this whole laggy model business there's going to be all kinds of crying on the forums

They've already made substantial improvements on this and it will continue to get better. Tripping will be back in within a few months too. People have already stopped running lights for most of the PUG games you come across and the ones that are left are very stupid or very good.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

M3atloaf, on 23 February 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

[/size]

They've already made substantial improvements on this and it will continue to get better. Tripping will be back in within a few months too. People have already stopped running lights for most of the PUG games you come across and the ones that are left are very stupid or very good.

the odd shape of the raven combined with the hitbox sync problems at high speed make them insane damage sponges, and that's why they're a favorite.

in fact, i'd settle for how hitbox sync is right now if we had knockdown. that's the big thing right there, playing a light at the moment is more or less, eve assault frigate in a nutshell. lock target, orbit, fire until dead, next target. but even in eve if you bump something its going to bork your everything

Edited by Battlecruiser, 23 February 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[Team Leader]

Hastega, on 23 February 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

As another poster stated in a similar thread, anyone who thinks Lights are invincible is using Lasers or SRMs. I've been one-shot by AC20s, critically beaten by tagged LRM strikes, torso sniped by quad PPCs, or blasted to smithereens by UACs. The high speed of lights coupled with normal lag makes them hard to track, but ballistics and lockons have no problems in landing blows. If lights were as invincible as people think, light vs light battles with medium pulse lasers would never end, but they do. It's the guys using medium lasers and doing little to no steady damage on components that can't score a kill. SRMs will even miss the target entirely, a batch of 6 rockets might have a 50% accuracy without an Artemis system, yet my SSRM2s annihilate lights.

TL:DR - You missed.

Lol at how this was written. Well said.

[Spitz]

Gaan Cathal, on 23 February 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

The first patch they put the Raven in it was a joke. Most people didn't even know they existed until the ECM patch hit, and then suddenly all the 'hitbox is fubar' rants (no evidence for) transferred from the Jenner to the Raven as did the Lagshield rants (was a problem).

Actually MOST people have known when each mech came out. Obvious by the way 3 out of 8 mechs on their team are that new mech the very first time the drop after the long often painful download of a new patch.

Gaan Cathal, on 23 February 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

What you describe in your scenario is something I do a lot, I barrel in on an enemy group (from the flank), slam one with my MLAS and an SRM volley, then turn off, ..... ........ ......... ............ ..........

........ ......... and so forth

Yeah because I haven't thought of them juking or not being noticed. I'm sorry but when a light mech is sitting still or not making themselves a hard target and are continually being hit with lasers and not doing squat for damage there is a problem. Last patch had ravens taking 6 solid hits from gauss and walking away not even nervous about being hit. There has been an ongoing problem.

Gaan Cathal, on 23 February 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

In short, you appear to want light mechs to be stripped of their only defence (speed/maneuverability). This is a common reaction to anything that uses speed as a defence,

No, what I want is for lights to have to USE their speed/maneuverability to stay alive instead of going toe to toe with heavies and not having to cringe while being hit by multiple mechs that would really be shredding them.

[Gaan Cathal]

Tempered, on 23 February 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

I don't really see the lag shield any more. I do still see a problem with lights in general, and with ssrms in particular. I think most heavies and assaults need a tweek to torso turning speed and range, except for the catapult of course. The cataphract in particular is extremely vulnerable to lights due to slow torso speed and little twist range.

It's also a brute if it catches them with any range though. Could use a little more in the torso though, and the catapult a little less. Stalker could do with some twist love as well. Might sound odd, but as a light pilot it always seems to me that the Awesome needs more in the arms than in the torso to hit me. Might be my imagination though.

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

i missed? no ****. i could tell that by the resounding pop of my shot impacting them and doing no damage that i needed to be aiming for the invisible target.

and i dont want to take your speed, or whatever the **** it is you think makes you so good. I just want it so that when i hit somebody, it does damage. without having to aim 5-10 meters in front of them on top of compensating for distance and speed. i've gotten headshots on fast mechs from shots that completely miss the target, intersect, and keep going.

and trust me, once they fix this whole laggy model business there's going to be all kinds of crying on the forums

Ok, so why are you missing?

There were a huge number of threads/posts after the netcode fix that hailed the death of lagshield (note, 'normal' lag-based inaccuracy =/= lagshield, that was/is a specific issue with Cryengine3 and objects moving in the 140km/hr+ region).

What is your ping, btw? If you are having to lag-lead by 5-10m then either it is high, or they are turning and you're actually only missing by a meter or two, the effect seems exacerbated from your viewpoint however. The latter happening consistently is unlikely, which suggests it's a primarily ping-related issue in your case.

The other issue that comes into play, especially with ballistics, is convergence - convergence in MWO is reticule-based and...erratic, to put it politely. Since light mechs are smaller and faster, you are more likely to have your reticule over a distant (or close) object which will (potentially) completely throw off your convergence. This they really need to fix by making convergence based on target locked, and defaulting to reticule when there's no target.

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

and i dont want to take your speed, or whatever the **** it is you think makes you so good

I don't think it makes me good, I think it compensates for being made out of tinfoil. Being a good light mech pilot (leaving aside ECM/SSRM crutchbunnys) is about jinking and arc-control, in the same way as good assault piloting is about torso twisting, fire concentration, etc. Going fast just means you've upgraded your engine.

As a note, (decent) light pilots are probably the most sensitive to issues with lag etc, since their most common opponents (like it or not) are other lights, and due to the relative speed they tend to have low ToT in those engagements, so missed shots are very noticable (when it doesn't devolve into a circlejerk).

Edit to avoid doublepost:

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

the odd shape of the raven combined with the hitbox sync problems at high speed make them insane damage sponges, and that's why they're a favorite.

They're a favorite because the 3L has the ECM/Streaks combo and enough auxiliary firepower to avoid sucking totally if that advantage is nullified. Before the ECM/SSRM combo became a thing, the only lights anyone gave a **** about where the Jenners, with the attendant hitbox complaints. With the lagshield fixed, the other Ravens at least work, but they're still crippled by engine size (and hardpoints for the 4X). Ravens also have huge legs, shoot those. It's the number one way to deal with any light, and the Raven is the most vulnerable to it.

Spitz, on 23 February 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Yeah because I haven't thought of them juking or not being noticed. I'm sorry but when a light mech is sitting still or not making themselves a hard target and are continually being hit with lasers and not doing squat for damage there is a problem. Last patch had ravens taking 6 solid hits from gauss and walking away not even nervous about being hit. There has been an ongoing problem.

No, what I want is for lights to have to USE their speed/maneuverability to stay alive instead of going toe to toe with heavies and not having to cringe while being hit by multiple mechs that would really be shredding them.

If that's happening, then yes it's clearly a problem. The thing is, as you can see from above posters (excluding my, obviously) and a lot of other threads on the subject, it's not a universal problem. Where do you guys play from? Serious question here, this is either ping-related or it's not. As an EU player, with average EU ping (I'd guess) I don't often see lag issues, although I do have issues where if I 'clip' an object at high speed, I rubberband like a ************ for a few seconds (then usually get shot, no I'm not whining, it's simulated knockdowns as far as I'm concerned). If it's not ping-related, then there's some other root artifact at play causing the problem.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 23 February 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Hastega]

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

the odd shape of the raven combined with the hitbox sync problems at high speed make them insane damage sponges, and that's why they're a favorite.

This seems to be a problem unique to you because I have no problem hitting Ravens with medium pulse lasers, and I don't feel the need to aim 5-10 meters ahead when using ballistics against them. Whatever problem you are experiencing with these phantom positions is not a universal one. Ahead aiming and "sync problems" are what we had in CounterStrike where everyone had a unique latency issue that you had to compensate for and aiming at an invisible spot 20 feet in front of a lagger's head was how you headshot him. That's nowhere near what this game has, I'm noticing my shots landing where I aim them every time even on fast mechs, all I need to account for is bullet travel time.

The game doesn't have sync issues just because it isn't hitscan. Shooters that do have perfect hitbox detection are almost always client-side hit detected and open to hackers modifying the client to get perfect accuracy shots from any distance. These extremely minor latency issues are significantly better than having the game become a script kiddy's paradise.

[Poisoner]

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

like no knockdown, is lag shield also a feature for lightwarrior online? should i just buy a AS7-3L now?

Learn to play dude. If you can't learn to find lag and to lead shots then go play Starcraft.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

next time you're getting orbited by one pay attention then. literally all you have to do in a raven is fit the biggest engine and circle strafe and nothing but the occasional ballistic shot will hit you, because all they have to do is touch the component to do full damage. but I digress.

I bought a 3l recently and didn't die once for the better half of four hours. and four of the games i played were me vs 4 people and i killed them all because they couldn't touch me.


thats why i say once they finally fix the problem, there will be endless bitching on the forums from light pilots who think they're good but instead were just relying on the crutch of hitbox sync issues.

oh and i almost forgot to add. anyone using streaks at this point is an ***** who doesn't know what they're doing because all it takes is another guy with ecm to show up to nullify your cancel and now you've got dead weight

Edited by Battlecruiser, 23 February 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[Hastega]

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

I bought a 3l recently and didn't die once for the better half of four hours. and four of the games i played were me vs 4 people and i killed them all because they couldn't touch me.

Would you mind recording one of these games so we can see? Lights being resilient is one thing, they have armor that's nearly half as good as an Assault mech, but it'd be nice to see your futile attempts at murdering a light to identify whether there actually is a severe problem on your end.

In the meantime, if you find this to be so critically disruptive, try a streak and PPC build and exact your revenge.

[MayGay]

why just a few matches ago I nuked a raven in the back with my dual gauss 'phract

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

James Griffin, on 23 February 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

why just a few matches ago I nuked a raven in the back with my dual gauss 'phract

oh i'm sorry, i guess people are under the assumpion that just because i state a problem, its one i must always have.

well, regardless. the day of tears is coming, and I'll be ready with my bucket to collect.

[Gaan Cathal]

Battlecruiser, on 23 February 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

oh i'm sorry, i guess people are under the assumpion that just because i state a problem, its one i must always have.

well, regardless. the day of tears is coming, and I'll be ready with my bucket to collect.

In fairness, you did just state you were nigh-invincible for over two hours...

Seriously, what is your ping? This is a relevant query.

Also, was that stint in a 3L the first light piloting you've done in the last, say, month? This is also a relevant query.