22 replies to this topic

[Gaunter92]

At this point in the tournament i feel that the Raven-3L has officially asserted it's dominance over the light bracket. Specifically 3MLs/2SSRM2s

Between the hours of 12-18 of the tournament (roughly) i was third place in the light leaderboard. I know for a fact that RedDiablo (Ranked 2nd) is using a 3L. If i saw a player in the top 25 in a match, they were in a 3L.

The reasons why top players (Or anyone) is running a 3L:
1. It hands down defeats any other light mech in 1 on 1 combat.
2. It has perfect outfitting options.
3. The hit boxes are too good.
4. If you are in any other light mech and a raven sees you, you're out of the match.

The above outline in further depth.
1. This sounds cocky, but i mean it with confidence. A good 3L pilot can safely kill a equally skilled pilot in any weight class in singular combat. Refer to point 3.
2. Personally i ran 232 armor, 142 speed, ECM, BAP, AMS, and was capable of spamming 25 points of damage with 1.39 heat efficiency (Infinite streak spam available).
3.Its nearly impossible to focus fire on a specific part of a Raven. The side torsos and center torso are too intermingled and the damage is always spread across the entirety of the mech. I was able to safely engage any size mech or run safely into large quantities of mechs because i knew that the opposing players couldn't core a targeted location on my mech without luck being on their side.
4. I have played 126 games in this tournament and i have 24 deaths. Not one of those deaths came from a light mech other than a 3L.

Now i have multiple approaches to fixing this. i believe any individual action would fix the issue.
A. Rework streaks or their ammo.
B. Rework ECM.
C. Remove ECM from all light mechs capable of carrying Streak missiles.
D. Severely hamper the 3Ls workable tonnage so that it isn't able to efficiently carry everything listed back in point #2.

I'm sure there are infinitely many threads about ECM and Streaks. I haven't read them, i'm sure someone else has offered perfectly acceptable options for reworks. These are just the opinions or suggestions of a light pilot who maintained high leaderboard rankings during the tournament before he started to value sleep more than the grind.

A. The streak SRM2 removes any need for player skill or accuracy. It shouldn't be able to be spammed for two minutes fifty-five seconds with no regards to heat or accuracy (This assumes the two tons of ammo like my build possesses). Thats 500 points of fire and forget, more than most heavy/assault mechs score in a match.
Perhaps drastically less ammo per ton would reduce the endurance of the 3L, it would require the loss of speed, armor, or other weapons in order for 3L pilots to carry enough ammunition in order to maintain their current spam efficiency.

B. As it stands the more ECM the better. This is slightly difficult to portray. Before ECM, back in Jenner wars - a single Jenner pilot could kill two Jenner pilots in a 1v2. Put those same pilots into Raven-3Ls and the solo pilot loses simply because he is unable to fire his main source of damage.
-Okay, now put a Jenner Raven-3L vs. Two 3Ls and the two 3ls win because the opposing Raven is disabled due to over lapping ECM suites. (Thanks for nothing Jenner pilot, didn't you hear about Points 1 through 4?)
-My suggestion is to not allow ECMs to stack. Let the single raven's ECM allow him to fire regardless of how many local enemies have ECMs toggled. (This is my biggest rage factor because most of my 22 deaths came from a murder of ravens inhibiting my ability to retaliate)
-My suggestion doesn't fully address ECM issues though, so i don't value this particular part of my post.

C. This is my favorite option. The two most common mechs were the commando 2D and the Raven 3L, because they both spam streaks and carry ECM. If you were to give ECM to the laser boat light mechs or lights that don't carry ECM and missile slots (Jenner-F, All spiders, perhaps introduce a commando without missile slots like the Death's Knell) then you would see an instant decrease in the domination of light mechs spamming (no-skill-required) fire and forgets. This keeps the current ECM ideas in play but requires ECM pilots to use some laser skill in order to remove other light mechs from the field.
- At the very least remove one of the 3Ls two missiles slots and one of the Commando 2D's three missile slots.

D. This refers to point #2, increase the weight of the chassis of a Raven 3L so that it has to choose between being a mobile electronics support mech or a 25 damage murder machine.

In conclusion, this post is simply my way of venting my frustration as many other forum users do. I dislike that if i want to win a game as a light mech pilot - i am required to pilot a mech that i don't even enjoy playing.

Thanks for the Read Devs.

[Carrioncrows]

What makes me loath the Raven-3L more than anything else in this game is the Steaks.

I used to like the Raven, and then ECM hit so every tom-**** and harry could annihilate any other light or medium mech with it.

Fix streaks and we are back on track with the raven.

[Deathlike]

ECM and streaks need to be reworked. The Raven itself is solid if it weren't for the two mechanics. I like the mech, but when the stats in the tourney suggest a 2:1 win-loss ratio for the top pilots in the lights, IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE.

I would be more interested other Raven chassis being reworked (like, a 250 engine @ minimum).

Edited by Deathlike, 23 February 2013 - 11:45 PM.

[Gaunter92]

Deathlike, on 23 February 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

ECM and streaks need to be reworked. The Raven itself is solid if it weren't for the two mechanics. I like the mech, but when the stats in the tourney suggest a 2:1 win-loss ratio for the top pilots in the lights, IT'S NOT A COINCIDENCE.

I would be more interested other Raven chassis being reworked (like, a 250 engine @ minimum).

Light mechs having a 2-1 w/l isn't because we're in ravens. Its because unlike heavy and assault mechs we can engage and disengage at our leisure. This means that we can control the end of the game by using mobility to out skirmish the final wounded mechs or have the option of forcing a capture victory.

The heavies and assaults are at the will of the tides.

Edited by Kalen Hickman, 23 February 2013 - 11:50 PM.

[Valorcalls]

My solution. (from a different thread)

Valorcalls, on 19 February 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

Streaks suffer from the fact that if a target is within 270 meters, facing you, and nothing in between you and target, it hits your CT (or head in catapults and stalkers).

THE FIX FOR SSRMS IS:

Make them fire 30ish meters straight out of the launcher. (this gives 240 meters of flight left to catch a target)

THEN begin to track said target at a turn rate of 30 degrees per 20 meters. (meaning they turn slow as ****)

The fuel in the SSRMs literally dies after 270 meters of flight. (its annoying sometimes)

Make them lose your targeting lock after EACH SSRM BATTERY is fired. (3 ssrms will require 3 seperate lockons and firing)

And finally, MAKE THEM SPREAD LIKE SRMS. They hit the following locations: CT, Left & Right Arms, and the Head. That is insane. (the biggest issue)

Problem solved.

-Flicks 2 pennies at OP and returns to forums-

[Deathlike]

Kalen Hickman, on 23 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Light mechs having a 2-1 w/l isn't because we're in ravens. Its because unlike heavy and assault mechs we can engage and disengage at our leisure. This means that we can control the end of the game by using mobility to out skirmish the final wounded mechs or have the option of forcing a capture victory.

The heavies and assaults are at the will of the tides.

There's some truth to that, but it also doesn't help with the existence of Alpine (especially if it is on Conquest).

There's something to the effect of how certain mechs "feel" to people when they use it. When I drive a Raven, I'm almost feeling fearless... if not reckless vs any lights (even vs another 3L) and a lot more "brave" vs the rest of the crowd of options we have available. I'm pretty sure many others feel the same way.

[DeadlyNerd]

ECM needs to prevent hostile AND friendly missile locks, 3L and 2D balanced and back to using regular SRMs as the default loadouts suggest.
Also, a very pleasant side effect will be that D-DC LRM boats will be a thing of the past.

[FrostVixen]

If I am piloting my atlas, Any raven that comes within 270m is dead if it comes alone. I have no problem handling the 3L raven. But when its 4 of them vs me in my atlas. Not much I can do about that. When I see a raven, I immediately shift priority to kill it. The only thing changing the kill priority would be sight of a x6 PPC stalker or an 6x6 SRM cat. If those two mech's are not within range or seen, That raven has the highest threat priority.

[Adridos]

FrostVixen, on 24 February 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

If I am piloting my atlas, Any raven that comes within 270m is dead if it comes alone. I have no problem handling the 3L raven. But when its 4 of them vs me in my atlas. Not much I can do about that. When I see a raven, I immediately shift priority to kill it. The only thing changing the kill priority would be sight of a x6 PPC stalker or an 6x6 SRM cat. If those two mech's are not within range or seen, That raven has the highest threat priority.

I don't want to be rude, but this is BS.

Why should Atlas be immortal against light mechs? It shouldn't. If you let a light eat you up because of some PPC stalker, somethiong like a Jenner will down you even faster.

[FrostVixen]

Adridos, on 24 February 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

I don't want to be rude, but this is BS.

Why should Atlas be immortal against light mechs? It shouldn't. If you let a light eat you up because of some PPC stalker, somethiong like a Jenner will down you even faster.

I don't mean to be rude, But I question your intelligence. I don't care what that jenner has, It isn't going to punch a hole in your chest as quickly as that x6PPC stalker is going to. Where did I say the atlas was immortal? I simply change priority to kill the enemy who can dish out the most damage so they don't have a clean shot every alpha.

Edited by FrostVixen, 24 February 2013 - 03:13 AM.

[Adridos]

FrostVixen, on 24 February 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

I don't mean to be rude, But I question your intelligence. I don't care what that jenner has, It isn't going to punch a hole in your chest as quickly as that x6PPC stalker is going to. Where did I say the atlas was immortal? I simply change priority to kill the enemy who can dish out the most damage so they don't have a clean shot every alpha.

What I wanted to say was that you complain, becuase you change your priority from any kind of mech (besides PPC Stalker and Splatcat) every time you see a Raven, like it is a bad thing. That he is lighter doesn't mean he must be lower priority than, say, a Dragon runing at you.

[Broad5ide]

Valorcalls, on 24 February 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

My solution. (from a different thread)

that was probably the worst solution i've seen. that would make it so you can't fire more than one ssrm at once, making them pointless on anything but a light and just plain bad on lights. pinpoint damage is already stronger than streaks if the pilot using it has good aim. the only thing a nerf like that would do is make it so streaks are worse than lasers even when you have bad aim.

Edited by Broad5ide, 24 February 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[SubRyan]

FrostVixen, on 24 February 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

I don't mean to be rude, But I question your intelligence. I don't care what that jenner has, It isn't going to punch a hole in your chest as quickly as that x6PPC stalker is going to. Where did I say the atlas was immortal? I simply change priority to kill the enemy who can dish out the most damage so they don't have a clean shot every alpha.

A good light mech driver knows to swing behind targets and chew through the rear armor. Going through 18 rear armor is much more preferable than going through the 94 frontal armor

[Lege]

Ecm + streaks is overpowered.
Jenners were the kings for so long, then ECM came and now the 3L is king.
Your not really fixing the game, your just making new flavor of the months.
All you need to do is change ecm range to 400m and inside that it's like it doesn't exist.
Streak lock on needs to go away too.
It was never meant to be 100% hit, just not fire if it would be a miss to conserve heat and ammo.
Make people aim their streaks already.

[DTheSleepless]

Lege, on 24 February 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

Ecm + streaks is overpowered.
Jenners were the kings for so long, then ECM came and now the 3L is king.
Your not really fixing the game, your just making new flavor of the months.
All you need to do is change ecm range to 400m and inside that it's like it doesn't exist.
Streak lock on needs to go away too.
It was never meant to be 100% hit, just not fire if it would be a miss to conserve heat and ammo.
Make people aim their streaks already.

The thing is that Jenners were easymode because they're just easy to pilot and have good armaments and weapons (well, and netcode admittedly).

3Ls are easymode because everything about them exploits holes in the game. Netcode, Streaks, ECM, wonky hitboxes. Just about anything in the game that has a serious balance issue or is outright technically broken materializes on the 3L.

[Adridos]

DTheSleepless, on 24 February 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

The thing is that Jenners were easymode because they're just easy to pilot and have good armaments and weapons (well, and netcode admittedly).

3Ls are easymode because everything about them exploits holes in the game. Netcode, Streaks, ECM, wonky hitboxes. Just about anything in the game that has a serious balance issue or is outright technically broken materializes on the 3L.

Jenners also had streaks and couldn' be hit unless you packed SSRMs in your build.

[Deathlike]

My suggestions:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1948369

Rework streak to become more like locking-ish SRMs, but mostly focus towards scatter splatter. Being able to target certain parts of the mech is fine, but it shouldn't be some sort of easy to use homing missile.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1945113

It still keeps the old ECM system (so, many of the foundational problems do not change), the difference is that ECM can only be enabled temporarily and it takes more time for the wait to reuse it. I'm sure smarter teams will use this more effectively, but it wouldn't be the same kind of abuse that ECM is used for right now.

[Hotthedd]

I agree with most of what the OP says, with the exception of the hitboxes. All Ravens run XL engines, so enough damage ANYWHERE on the 'mech will kill it.

The trick is hitting them, however.

[Valorcalls]

Broad5ide, on 24 February 2013 - 03:43 AM, said:

that was probably the worst solution i've seen. that would make it so you can't fire more than one ssrm at once, making them pointless on anything but a light and just plain bad on lights. pinpoint damage is already stronger than streaks if the pilot using it has good aim. the only thing a nerf like that would do is make it so streaks are worse than lasers even when you have bad aim.

The point of that part about dropping lock is not to force someone to completely relock on a target, but rather to drop the lock to half(ish) lock time. That means that locking on another ECM would taker a few seconds, while locking on any other mech would be rapid and allow a decent fire rate that doesnt equal 10-15 CT/H damage for just simply getting in line with a target for a lock time. Instead, you have to either STAY there for the whole time (allowing people to either turn to a side and take it on the arm, or turn and force you to run or take the heat.

Does that make more sense as to the reasoning behind why thats in the part?

I do not think the rest of it is all that horrible. in fact, the 270 flight fuel is already in the game. The solution is more about the turn rate and the need for some spread in them so they arent always a CT/head shot if your in front/back of target.

The turn rate factor and the flight straight factor are in part to give an AMS system a extra bit of time to chew on the missiles (not that they help that much with them).

I do agree with your about the pinpoint damage part. I personally dont have an issue with SSRMS (I have a 2d and 3l and a d-dc [I use lrms, ssrms and srms on him] along with all 3 standard cents and TBT 3c, 5m, 7m, and my founders hunchy, and am waiting to add a few jagers and a stalker or 2 to the pack)

I learned to aim really really early. to many people depend on missile lock for their ability to aim. Which I understand from new players. They dont know how to aim.

Basically in all my jibberish in this (TLDR part)

Learn to aim.

Quit bitching about something that really isn't a huge issue.

Make SSRMs not an auto CT/H hit.

Learn to adapt to weapons you have to fight.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Kalen Hickman, on 23 February 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Light mechs having a 2-1 w/l isn't because we're in ravens. Its because unlike heavy and assault mechs we can engage and disengage at our leisure. This means that we can control the end of the game by using mobility to out skirmish the final wounded mechs or have the option of forcing a capture victory.

The heavies and assaults are at the will of the tides.

Yes im sure the ability to never miss and in return only be targeted had nothing to do with it.... Oh wait your not serious are you?!?