134 replies to this topic

[hammerreborn]

Doc Holliday, on 25 February 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

I can't be bothered to waste a lot of time digging up the thread right now, but someone's already done that. In that study, just one extra ECM gave ~75% win rate.

And I remember a thread where someone did it and one extra ECM gave a 0% win rate. I just can't be bothered to look for it.

See I can play this game too!

[Livewyr]

We're getting off constructive target:

DocBach and Doc Holiday, do you guys have any other details you want to add/subtract from the current state of adjustment?

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP (and possibly increases lock-time of Missiles in general)
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM


LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.3.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.


(Now that it is one spot if I'm correct, any items we want to change before I send in a full write-up to Garth.)

Edited by Livewyr, 25 February 2013 - 01:55 PM.

[Gothbloodman]

I don't hate ECM as much as some, but I still get that many things could be changed so it isn't such a topic of cooncern. There are SO many metrics that could change to make it more "reasonable."

Change the weight. Change the number of slots. Make it into multiple modules. Make more mechs be able to carry them. Change the distances. Make it upgradable with pilot tree. Etc.

I trust the good people developing the game either have more data or more of a game-plan on where ECM is going - so I'm not worried!

On a related note, though, I don't understand NARC. Short range. Heavy. Very little ammo / ton. ECM counters it... I'd pesonally rather see them increase NARCs usefullness over decreasing other things...

Like - make us want to take ALL equipment and have to decide what to sacrificerather them make us want to take specific mechs because they are the only ones that do something... like ECM.

Edited by Gothbloodman, 25 February 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Doc Holliday]

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

We're getting off constructive target:

DocBach and Doc Holiday, do you guys have any other details you want to add/subtract from the current state of adjustment?

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP (and possibly increases lock-time of Missiles in general)
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM


LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.3.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.


(Now that it is one spot if I'm correct, any items we want to change before I send in a full write-up to Garth.)

I'd still nerf LRMs less or not at all, and change AMS the way I suggested. And I'd still drastically reduce or remove the mech shaking effect from SSRMs.

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

And I remember a thread where someone did it and one extra ECM gave a 0% win rate. I just can't be bothered to look for it.

See I can play this game too!

You don't have to believe me, but that doesn't make what I said any less true.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

He knows the thread exists. I believe it was Tolkein who posted the win rates and extrapolated the data.

[DocBach]

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

We're getting off constructive target:

DocBach and Doc Holiday, do you guys have any other details you want to add/subtract from the current state of adjustment?

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status) - Should not be able to detect shut down 'Mechs out of line of sight
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.
provides a more detailed "paper doll", ie weapon location and perhaps a percentage of armor left on enemy mech's location

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP (and possibly increases lock-time of Missiles in general)
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode

ECM should also deny spotting units target information like paper doll
Make a chance to deny locks to spotting units if spotting unit is inside ECM bubble
Add ghost target mode which increases lock time of enemy weapons, and adds diversionary targets that Beagle can detect
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM


LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.3.Might be way to much of a nerf, I'd say 1.6 would probably work if missiles were faster.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.
Fixing ECM to where you can use Streaks without ECM superiority would allow other 'Mechs to employ SSRM's and negate the 3L's advantage with them, Streaks really don't need much work to them besides maybe a slight damage nerf.

(Now that it is one spot if I'm correct, any items we want to change before I send in a full write-up to Garth.)

[Orzorn]

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

We're getting off constructive target:

DocBach and Doc Holiday, do you guys have any other details you want to add/subtract from the current state of adjustment?

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP (and possibly increases lock-time of Missiles in general)
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM


LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.3.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.


(Now that it is one spot if I'm correct, any items we want to change before I send in a full write-up to Garth.)

Allow TAG to work within ECM range, but only gives the bonus to the TAG wielding mech.

Also everything else that DocBach said.

Edited by Orzorn, 25 February 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Eddrick]

DocBach, on 25 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I'd have to use cover and concealment, movement under direct and indirect fire tactics and patience to best an enemy instead of stomping down the river in the open without fear of indirect fire?

This is what I see happening if ECM gets nerfed.

[Pihb]

ECM does need tweaks for sure. Do any of you realize that without ecm, this game would be lrm online?

[DocBach]

Pihb, on 25 February 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

ECM does need tweaks for sure. Do any of you realize that without ecm, this game would be lrm online?

The LRM boaters just use tag now. The biggest losers are other light 'Mechs without ECM, the biggest winner from all this is the 3L.

[Livewyr]

Editing the quote.
Edits will have *** next to it or be bolded for easy detection.

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Artemis: Increases accuracy of Artemis Missiles on target mech if target is in LoS.

TAG: Increases Accuracy of incoming missiles on TAG'd mech by 35%

NARC:
Keeps Target information on NARC'd mech for any LRM/SSRM mech until the beacon is destroyed or mech receives 'x' amount of damage or for 'x' amount of time, or whatever. (and increases accuracy for missiles by 'y' amount)

AMS: ***
Increase effectiveness of AMS by 30% (take out 30% more missiles whoever they want to do that)

BAP:
Increases detection range by 25%
Decreases Lock time by 25%
Detects any mech within 120 meters (regardless of terrain/status)
Informs BAP-mech that it is being Jammed by ECM
Informs BAP-mech if it is targeted.
Informs BAP-mech if it is being missile'd.
Provides Detailed Target data. (weapon location)
Detects and differentiates False Positives from ECM for team. (counters lock-time increase from ECM)

ECM:
Nullifies BAP detection range boost.
Nullfies BAP Locktime boost from BAP
Nullfies BAP 120 meter detection within 180 meters.
Nullifies BAP targeting/missile notifications within 180 meters
Disables enemy TAG'ing mech within 180 meters.
Disables enemy NARC beacon on any friendly mech within 180 meters.
Disables target info sharing on any enemy mech within 180 meters.
Counters enemy ECMs within 180 meters, when in ECCM mode.
Creates False Positive Targets (ghosts) That increase missile lock-on time. (in ghost Mode)
---
No longer acts like Stealth Armor or Angel ECM

Missiles: ***
Generate much less shake, but give it cumulative shake. (get hit with a couple missiles at once; barely a twitch, get hit with a bunch of missiles of once; more violent rock.)

LRMS:
Reduce damage of each missile from 1.8 to 1.5.
Increase projectile speed by 1.5x or 2x so missiles get to targets faster.

SSRMS:
Reduce agility to create possibility of miss on agile/fast mechs and if fired at a certain angle away from targets.

Notes:
I think Streaks still need a bit of a nerf because while the ECM adjustment would dethrone the Raven as king Light king, the Streak-cats would make a triumphant return to terrorize.

Reduced the scope of LRM damage nerf, but I still think 1.6 would be too high.

Left our BAP armor readout- since you get that already in paper-doll from regular target info. (percentages would be too crowded when you already have weapon locations.)

Left in BAP 120 meter detection on active mechs through terrain. (120 meters is tiny in scale and would give more incentive to use BAP in a scouting role.)

Added point I forgot before about missile shake.

Orzorn, I left out the TAG adjustment because the ECM bubble does radiate the required medium to jam TAG signals within the bubble.

-------------------------------

Further refinement?

Edited by Livewyr, 25 February 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[hammerreborn]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 25 February 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

He knows the thread exists. I believe it was Tolkein who posted the win rates and extrapolated the data.

Found it, because at least this guy gave info on how to find it http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1711573

Quote

The hypothesis is that the team with more ECM systems will tend to win.

Total Games: 54
Inconclusive Games: 13 - these are games where the number of ECM systems is equal on both teams.
Conclusive games: 41
The conclusive games break down as follows:
Matching expectations: 33
Contradicted expectations: 8
Using the formula given on page 10 of this document: [color="#b27204"]http://classes.soe.u...nter03/h5m3.pdf[/color]
I arrive at
Sigma=0.0619 which is 2.54 matches,
To reach a neutral outcome (20.5/20.5, the results would need to be shifted by 4.92 sigmas),
Assuming the distribution is normal, this gives confidence of > 99.999% - aka "better than 5 nines"
In short, the data still supports the statement that the team with more ECMs on it will tend to win.

Now that we have sufficient mass of data we can start to look at some other interesting features in the set.
The data so far says that you're 4.13x more likely to win if you're on the team that has more ECMs, this seems way too much but again let's assume that it's the case. I now ask the question "how certain is it that you are at least 2x more likely to win the match if you have an extra ECM." I do this by calculating how many sigmas the result can be shifted away from the measured result (33/8) before we arrive at a ratio of 2:1 (here 27.3333/13.6667). The answer is 2.23 sigmas which comes out to 97.4%. This is still a smallish amount of data, but it indicates that if you have more ECM on your team in a PUG game, you are 97.4% confident that you are at least 2x more likely to win than your opponents.

So...other than the fact that this is 2 months old, doesn't take into account ANY of the recent changes to TAG/NARC/PPCs/Sensor Module changes. He only has 40 trials. Apparently 100 is too little according to you, but clearly 40, that number is completely legit.

His method of data gathering is also highly suspect because he mentally counted and told someone else how to log, rather than having an end of battle screen to utilize for the numbers. It also doesn't even try to track disconnects, premades, or which mechs are the ECM offenders. Him running around trying to gather the other teams numbers rather than actually piloting also makes the numbers suspect because instead of helping his team he's actually hindering it raising the odds the other team will win.

Next.

Edited by hammerreborn, 25 February 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[DocBach]

Give Ghost Target mode the ability to increase enemy lock on time -- the rules for it give a +1 modifier to hit in the table top, could easily be translated to increased lock on time. Some kind of missile defense should still be instated so you don't nerf ECM too far,especially with how superior Clan missile weapons are coming to the game soon.

[Livewyr]

Edited again.

[Livewyr]

I'm considering posting the refined changes in a new thread.

My reasoning is that I think most people don't get past the OP very far in a thread with more than three pages and I would like more ideas/reasoning from other players as well.

We have a billion already.. what's one more? lol

What say you?

[hammerreborn]

Livewyr, on 25 February 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

I'm considering posting the refined changes in a new thread.

My reasoning is that I think most people don't get past the OP very far in a thread with more than three pages and I would like more ideas/reasoning from other players as well.

We have a billion already.. what's one more? lol

What say you?

I'd say you'd get reported for posting a duplicate thread/cross linking threads which is a violation of the CoC

Edited by hammerreborn, 25 February 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

I'd say you'd get reported for posting a duplicate thread/cross linking threads which is a violation of the CoC

Probably correct.. but.. why are you still here? This has been the only thing you've been correct about in the whole thread and it doesn't even have anything to do with ECM, BAP, TAG, AMS, NARC, Artemis, or Missiles.

[Solis Obscuri]

I'd put up some ideas here, but I may revise them a bit based on some further research and observations: http://mwomercs.com/...doesnt-fix-ecm/

[Gremlich Johns]

yes, but no ghost images.

also, a big ball o static should appear on the radar screen where the ECM using mech is (if active)

[Livewyr]

I just updated the OP so people can get the fruit of this discussion thus far without having to extrapolate it.

Gremlich Johns, on 25 February 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

yes, but no ghost images.

also, a big ball o static should appear on the radar screen where the ECM using mech is (if active)

Ghosts would appear on Radar, but not in the actual map.

A big ball of static would be counter-intuitive. (instead of hiding some information, it would be a big beacon for the ECM mech's location)