12 replies to this topic

[Sypeo]

I'm curious as to why people label certain builds as cheese or complain about boating. What's wrong with them and why are they bad for the game?

From my own perspective everything I've seen (or even used) that's considered cheese is usually easily countered. The only upside to the cheese builds is that they become really good at one thing but in turn become horrible at most everything else. So please, enlighten me. I seriously want to know why all the hate.

And on a side note, what are all the cheese builds that most everyone can agree on?

P.S. Lights with Streaks and ECM I get... mostly an issue with the netcode that's already been partially fixed and will hopefully be completely fixed soon.

[Stoicblitzer]

I don't consider lights with streak and ecm cheese. I think people consider certain builds "cheese" because of the low skill-high reward nature of them.

EDIT: I guess by that definition, lights with SSRMs and ECM would be cheese.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 24 February 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Team Leader]

Instead of cheese, I kind of read highly specialized. If you try and beat a cheese boat at what it's good at, you will lose. If you play smart and get in a situation where it is vulnerable, you could win. An experienced player in a cheese boat is something that should be feared, because they will always get the advantage in their favor. However, an equally experienced player should be able to defeat them by using their own strengths and exploiting the enemies weaknesses. While some cheese builds are just easier to use and very powerful, I think that's just a fact of life that we will have to deal with.

[PoLaR]

and,

[FupDup]

My only problem with certain boats/"cheese" builds is that there's so few of them. If you boil down a game to just ~3 units, it's gonna get boring real fast no matter what those 3 units are. A wider variety of viable boats would make the game much less monotonous.


EDIT:

Mack1, on 24 February 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Good job these people were not born around 1925 could you imagine them lot fighting in WWII?

"Right I refuse to fight anymore because the Germans have better Tanks, more men and better guns then we do, they are all cheese, am going back home"

Because real life wars = fictional giant robot shooters, right?

Edited by FupDup, 24 February 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Mack1]

People who cry cheese just can't cope with certain Mech builds. Good job these people were not born around 1925 could you imagine them lot fighting in WWII?

"Right I refuse to fight anymore because the Germans have better Tanks, more men and better guns then we do, they are all cheese, am going back home"

[Johnny Reb]

Tiger tanks are so OP!

[Stoicblitzer]

Team Leader, on 24 February 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Instead of cheese, I kind of read highly specialized. If you try and beat a cheese boat at what it's good at, you will lose. If you play smart and get in a situation where it is vulnerable, you could win. An experienced player in a cheese boat is something that should be feared, because they will always get the advantage in their favor. However, an equally experienced player should be able to defeat them by using their own strengths and exploiting the enemies weaknesses. While some cheese builds are just easier to use and very powerful, I think that's just a fact of life that we will have to deal with.

This is one of the best explanations I've seen. I would consider myself an experienced pilot so when I run a splatcat I don't charge head-on into the enemy. I either wait for them to be focused on something else or flank. In cities, it's just hit and run while you weave between buildings and jump jet around. Try not to stop and don't get out in the open. I bound a button on my mouse to toggle the missile doors easily. Most cheese builds are very powerful in experienced hands.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 24 February 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Relic1701]

Unfortunately, with the advent of the bigger maps, the highly specialised short range monsters, are going struggle more than the guys who have a mix of weapon ranges, this is something that they will have to accept, or adapt to.

All the builds I've encountered have had a counter, and a bit of forum searching will soon find you that counter.

Edited by Relic1701, 24 February 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[Sypeo]

Team Leader, on 24 February 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Instead of cheese, I kind of read highly specialized. If you try and beat a cheese boat at what it's good at, you will lose. If you play smart and get in a situation where it is vulnerable, you could win. An experienced player in a cheese boat is something that should be feared, because they will always get the advantage in their favor. However, an equally experienced player should be able to defeat them by using their own strengths and exploiting the enemies weaknesses. While some cheese builds are just easier to use and very powerful, I think that's just a fact of life that we will have to deal with.

Would it be preferable then if all builds, whether "Highly Specialized" or not, used the same level of skill in to performance out ratio? I don't think it should. Part of the draw for these types of games is the meta aspect of it. Finding the most powerful build for the way you play is a big reason for me (and I imagine others) to keep wanting to come back to the game. Sure there has to be some semblance of balance to it, but can anyone say there's any one build that is so far out of whack that it's making the game worse for others?

I honestly think that these little imbalances make the game better. It keeps us experimenting with different setups and more interested in the content that's being released. New toys to play with and figure out. It's because of that that I don't mind people using cheese builds. If they want to get better they'll eventually have to try something else... and if they don't, that's fine too. Sometimes it's fun playing in a niche.

[IceSerpent]

Sypeo, on 24 February 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

I'm curious as to why people label certain builds as cheese or complain about boating. What's wrong with them and why are they bad for the game?

There's nothing really wrong with any build currently available. Certain people (also known as card-carrying members of "steering wheel underhive" ™ ) label anything that kills them as "cheese" or "OP".

[Hastega]

Ignore these people. Cheese builds are so called because they are highly effective at their specialization and people are too daft to counter them. It's no different from calling shotguns a noob weapon or complaining about getting torn to shreds by an SMG. Easy to use, highly effective, masters of their specialized fields, yet no pro will complain about these tools when carrying their AK47s and M16s and surpassing them on the scoreboards. Bad players quit too easily rather than learning how to adapt to the tactics of the weapons they are facing. The number one reason an SMG or shotgun just murdered you is because you weren't paying attention to your flanks. The number two reason is your aim sucked and you failed to kill them before they ran into instant death range. Complaints about apparent cheese are rarely validated, especially when pertaining to weapons that absolutely crush inexperienced players because they need different tactics and heightened awareness to manage. It's just like how some people are calling light mechs invincible and capable of tanking 800+ damage while others are having no problem landing blows that destroy them outright.

Quitters never win, and winners never quit. It's a learn to play issue.

[ChrisOrange]

This topic will induce many face palms and pointless bickering...let me just make my case and be done.

There should be no hardpoints in the game. At all. Mech3 had this and it works well when you have a bid system. For those who don't know Bidding is BASICALLY picks and bans.

If I am the lower ranked player I choose the first bid for our match...or you could make it random for who gets first pick. You go back and forth and can pick map...weapon types...ecm on/off...jump jets enabled... (that would be available on every mech)...maybe even ONE chassis to ban etc etc. Almost any game parameters. If the match is Lasers/Ballistics ONLY then you can only use mechs with those loadouts...but no mech has hard points so you could build it how you like. Fix it up with weight matching or hard team limits (like 2 assault, 2 heavy, 2med, and 2 lights) and now you have a viable Mechwarrior game instead of this hard counter min/max only "almost a sim" game.

Then your only source of "cheese" is "this team is only good at ballistics only game mode...let's bid against that." Any cheese is crushed by being able to have picks/bans. The entire system of picks and bans is a meta game in and of itself. I would make the best robot game you guys have EVER seen if I had creative control.

PGI didn't do that and the CANT do that or they would have to refund a lot of people. They chose to go down this strange path that actually caters to no one and I fear have no real vision for the title. EDIT: there are other things i would do but that's coming in either a long post or short video.

Edited by ChrisOrange, 24 February 2013 - 12:02 PM.