24 replies to this topic

[BigBadHarv]

oh great.
the poison that is elo has been brought into a game I like

my experience with this system in online games:
I used to play DotA back in the day, the WC3 version. It was an enjoyable affair with friends although the games could be messy with leavers and so on/
after about 3 years, a game called Heroes of Newerth comes out. Its DotA in all but name and features a new thing called "statistics"
these stats would track each and every player, kills, deaths, wins/losses, wards placed, towers denied... everything. I knew this meant trouble. Games from then on would turn into high pressure messes were every player is so choked up about statistics that they freak the **** out when they start losing. Worse still, the rating system they brought in (MMR - matchmaking rating) was a horrible indicator of skill. The solo queue was mostly luck as player x might have a relatively high MMR, but he got it by riding the coat tails of better players. games became 'crush or be crushed' and about 1 in 10 games were actually evenly matched.
so not only would you have kids freaking the **** out because they can't handle the reality that the arent actually good at the game (which would mean mass flaming and trolling), but it meant that winning games was mostly based on luck because the 4 other guys you were with could literally be of any skill level.

I determined here that the only way to have an accurate indicator of skill would be in 1 versus 1 games, like quakelive (which I have played since beta). 1v1 gives no excuses and accurately shows how good the player is and can be. you dont have to rely on rolling a dice when entering a game and you will be placed against players of your skill level practically all the time. (also, elo was devised for Chess - a 1v1 game. http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system )

Now we MWO. the game is already 8v8, its a difficult game that requires a lot of teamwork and it is free to play.
these are 3 things that are positively poisonous to elo ratings being accurate. lets take a look why-
Player X searches for a game.
Hes placed with 7 other guys on his team, he has no choice about whether he wants to play with them or not
Player X is a good player, but unfortunately it is 8v8 and him being good won't make a difference if 5/6/7 guys on his team are dribbling wrecks
Player X loses the game 8 - 0
Player X searches another game at a lower level (cos his elo goes down after losing that match)
Same thing happens, he has no control over his team, they get crushed, he goes lower and lower.

elo IS luck. if you get the team, you win, you get points, you rise higher. thats how it works. I've had to deal with this system across 3 games in various forms (Dota 2, LoL & HoN). it was absolutely toxic to actually enjoying the game on your own.
Mechwarrior Online is a difficult game - its got a lot of depth and is very difficult to learn. All Piranha will achieve is creating a MASSIVE lower class of players (i think its called elo hell in LoL circles) which will be a toxic environment for all concerned.

what it means for us intelligent folk is the following - You have to find and team and only play with that team. DON'T solo queue, its a fast way to destroy your elo and fun as you watch little John repeatedly charge straight into the enemy. DON'T give people the benefit of the doubt - the vast majority of gamers nowadays are simple people, they cant understand complex issues and will respond to things they don't understand with flames/trolling. DON'T think "I can't be that unlucky, surely i'll win my next game" - you can be that unlucky. the majority gamers nowadays are terrible and there are lots of them, they will choke up the servers you play on and you will act like a magnet for them. Repeatedly losing due to not being able to land on the right team is extremely frustrating and a very fast way to lose your love for the game.


Now I know some people here have taken offence at what I've just said, I know that they are thinking "HURRRRR hes only saying that because hes bad" - In all those games I've mentioned I was at a high elo and played in leagues/ladders with other good players.. i wasn't even near 'pro' or any of that but I was on a far higher level then 90% of the games population. BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IM SAYING (sorry for the caps but people are simple and tend not to read/understand stuff they don't like). The environment created due to these awful ranking systems is nothing short of toxic. I'm 28 years old now (almost 29 :s ) and frankly, I'm too old to watch a bunch of 15 year olds rage down a server because they hate being bad at games.

anyhow, find a team. play with them. stay away from solo queue.

Edited by BigBadHarv, 24 February 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[Kdogg788]

So let them. No one is saying that ELO is the be all end of of matchmaking, only that it could help make things slightly mor evenly matched. Not everyone cares that much about their statistics. My K/D wavers between 1.25 and 1.3 with a mix of both group and solo play. I feel no pressure to maintain some outlandish ELO or K/D rating in an online game. For me it's for fun and a way to unwind after working two jobs.

-k

[BigBadHarv]

Kdogg788, on 24 February 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

only that it could help make things slightly mor evenly matched.

but thats the problem, it doesn't. all it does is turn already annoying kids into even more annoying kids.
its a rating system devised for 1 versus 1 play in Chess. It has no relevance to the skill of 8 versus 8 games of Mechwarrior Online

[BigBadHarv]

after browsing the forum I can clearly see I'm not the only one who knows the torture that is solo playing an elo based game
the nice thing is that this community doesn't seem as bad as the HoN / DotA ones in their responses

[SlXSlXSlX]

So a matching system based on skill/stats is bad? And leads to unfair matches?

And N. Korea doesn't have Nukes?

And congress is efficient/productive?

And tax cuts for the rich are good for the middle class?

I guess what your saying OP is elo is bad because, you say so? I dont see a line of logic to follow, and I read it 3x.

The guy in your example, well call him Mr. cant win... he loses and his elo drops, but its not him, its his teams fault, and then it repeats?

Im terrible, but racked 4 kills my first game today, prob a low elo match. I think your Mr. cant win, is a guy who should have a very low elo, it sounds like he has no impact on the success of his team, and as such, deserves a low ranking.

[BigBadHarv]

SlXSlXSlX, on 24 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

So a matching system based on skill/stats is bad? And leads to unfair matches?

And N. Korea doesn't have Nukes?

And congress is efficient/productive?

And tax cuts for the rich are good for the middle class?

I guess what your saying OP is elo is bad because, you say so? I dont see a line of logic to follow, and I read it 3x.

The guy in your example, well call him Mr. cant win... he loses and his elo drops, but its not him, its his teams fault, and then it repeats?

Im terrible, but racked 4 kills my first game today, prob a low elo match. I think your Mr. cant win, is a guy who should have a very low elo, it sounds like he has no impact on the success of his team, and as such, deserves a low ranking.

i will explain because you don't seem to understand some basic concepts
#1 - elo is a ranking system used for an individuals skill when it comes to playing another individual in the game of Chess. This system has absolutely no relevance on Team games due to how skewed the numbers can be. This is a very simple line of logic for you to follow

#2 - The example of Player X is to show how little control the player has over his elo. He has no control over what team mates he has (if he solo queues) and luck plays a major factor in whether he will win or lose the game. The same principle can be applied to Player Y who can win every match simply because he lands on the right team and therefore gets a rating far higher than he deserves.

#3 - The kids that clog up gaming servers nowadays hate being bad. This means that every game for them involving elo turns into a high pressure cooker for them where they are far more likely to start trolling/flaming and leads to a completely toxic atmosphere. It starts off slowly but give it a few months and you will see 50 times more flaming and trolling then what you see today. For example, I had a game earlier where 1 of my team mates stayed on the spawn point out of spite because one of his team mates asked him to move. Spite is a massive issue for gamers as they hate being told what to do, even if its beneficial.

#4 - Playing with a team on coms is a far better way to play this game as it limits the amount of luck you need to be successful.

[Naeron66]

BigBadHarv, on 24 February 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

but thats the problem, it doesn't. all it does is turn already annoying kids into even more annoying kids.
its a rating system devised for 1 versus 1 play in Chess. It has no relevance to the skill of 8 versus 8 games of Mechwarrior Online

You are wrong. It does have relevance in an 8v8 game, the effect of skill is diluted by the team size but over a larger number of games the pattern does emerge that results in an ELO rating that does reflect your skill.

A few unlucky 8-0 losses or wins do not matter, over many such events balance out and become irrelevant.

BigBadHarv, on 24 February 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

i will explain because you don't seem to understand some basic concepts
#1 - elo is a ranking system used for an individuals skill when it comes to playing another individual in the game of Chess. This system has absolutely no relevance on Team games due to how skewed the numbers can be. This is a very simple line of logic for you to follow

Ad hominems are no substitute for facts and accuracy. Again you are wrong, ELO started as a ranking system for chess and was based on 1 v 1. However it has been adapted to work for team games.

Edited by Naeron66, 24 February 2013 - 04:22 PM.

[Kobold]

Look at the W/L of the tourney leaderboards. There are clearly a number of players, even solo dropping, who are winning way more often than they lose. Clearly it isn't all luck, and something should be able to be inferred from wins and losses, even in a team game.

Much like BV, Elo does not need to be perfect. It just has to be "good enough."

[MiraTheKilla]

Well, it would seem like you would just have to take a command role. I notice with pug drops, prodominantly, ones where no one says anything, and there is no organization...it usually ends up in a defeat. I do 8man and 4man premades, as well as play solo. 8man is a given. All organized. 4Man, half organized. Usually though, we let the pugs know, and we generally do well. Just the little bit of advise on where to go, what to do..so on. Soloplay on the other hand, gotta lay down a plan as soon as the match begins. If someone else doesnt do it first that is.

Generally with my solo drop experience, when no one talks, no one wins. Take command, lay down a coordinate, make sure people know the important targets to take out first. Granted, whether or not people decide to go rambo is beyond your control, but it lessens your chances. Besides, the better you do as an individual, the more chances you have of dropping with a skilled drop, meaning better and more organized players.

[BGrey]

One of the major concerns you seem to have is the community behavior, from my experience playing dota makes me feel that its not the best comparison.

-much of the **** talking was a result of player stats/elo being visible to everyone
-the third person roaming perspective in those games allows you to watch and evaluate your teammates actions
-smaller team sizes allow for much more observation of these teammates
-a higher level of interaction and cohesion between teammates was needed to be successful

All of this led to a situation where players were highly critical of one another and were easily able to see the failures of the other players, something I just dont feel you have much of a chance to do in MWO.

[SlXSlXSlX]

BigBadHarv, on 24 February 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

#4 - Playing with a team on coms is a far better way to play this game as it limits the amount of luck you need to be successful.

Spoken like a true stat padder..

LOL, at least you don't try to hide it.

[BigBadHarv]

Naeron66, on 24 February 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

You are wrong. It does have relevance in an 8v8 game, the effect of skill is diluted by the team size but over a larger number of games the pattern does emerge that results in an ELO rating that does reflect your skill.

A few unlucky 8-0 losses or wins do not matter, over many such events balance out and become irrelevant.



Ad hominems are no substitute for facts and accuracy. Again you are wrong, ELO started as a ranking system for chess and was based on 1 v 1. However it has been adapted to work for team games.

it did indeed start as a ranking system for chess and thats where it should stay.
what you should say is a pattern 'can' emerge. due to the inaccuracies of the players ratings it always means that there won't be a state of balance. in HoN and DotA it was spread over 5 players and that made your actions have very little impact if the other 4 people with you countered your good play with their bad play. What this meant was that games became a lottery of not having as many bad players as the other team. if you had 2 good players, 2 bad players and 1 ok player versus 5 ok players, the ok players nearly always win due to how much the bad players would drag down the others.

what if a good player has bad luck? He/She can't control who they are with so every game becomes a lottery. If they repeatedly get the bad players (and this does happen far more often then you think) do you think that player is going to stick around? hell no. the frustration of being forced to play with people you dont / shouldnt be playing with will get to them and they will move on, its not like they dont have options.

in 1v1 there is far far fewer random things that impede the rating, thats why it works. when you add in game servers that filter for hundreds of thousands of players in 8 versus 8 matchups with already skewed statistics, you are never going to have an accurate rating. id say for about 80% of the players it would be a pretty general idea of what their skill is but that isnt a good enough benefit to warrant the mass of dribbling children that elo feeds and the toxic atmosphere that it creates. frankly, its an extremely lazy system put into games by developers that should be aiming for better. i thought we were going to have a universe to play with and planets to drop on, not chasing numbers on game servers full of dribbling wrecks that hate being bad at games/life.

************

Mirakuu, on 24 February 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Well, it would seem like you would just have to take a command role. I notice with pug drops, prodominantly, ones where no one says anything, and there is no organization...it usually ends up in a defeat. I do 8man and 4man premades, as well as play solo. 8man is a given. All organized. 4Man, half organized. Usually though, we let the pugs know, and we generally do well. Just the little bit of advise on where to go, what to do..so on. Soloplay on the other hand, gotta lay down a plan as soon as the match begins. If someone else doesnt do it first that is.

Generally with my solo drop experience, when no one talks, no one wins. Take command, lay down a coordinate, make sure people know the important targets to take out first. Granted, whether or not people decide to go rambo is beyond your control, but it lessens your chances. Besides, the better you do as an individual, the more chances you have of dropping with a skilled drop, meaning better and more organized players.

doesn't make a lick of difference. As I said earlier, gamers are extremely spiteful and often play against their own team of they feel someone is being patronising towards them. In my experience, its more like playing Lemmings. You want to get the right lemmings doing the right thing at the right time, if you leave them go on their own - they kill themselves. but these are lemmings that dislike being a lemming and can vent their fury via trolling/flaming. I nearly always try and take command in solo games and it makes no difference. They will do what they want, run into whatever walls/enemies they want and losing means nought to them. There are tons of players out there I would class as autolose players - guys that just wander in, ignore any form of strategy or thinking in the game, dont do anything beneficial, die, lose the game, move on to the next and do the same there. sometimes they will win because their team wins for them, sometimes they can have a high elo because they have good luck at pressing the launch button

[BigBadHarv]

SlXSlXSlX, on 24 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Spoken like a true stat padder..

LOL, at least you don't try to hide it.

i don't even know how to access my stats. I also have no clan or no team in this game. I have 2 people on my friends list who are mates IRL and waiting for the game to get better before they decide to play (planetaries, more stuff to do aside from pressing launch and hoping you don't get bad players). I have never launched a game with a team in MWO in my life. thats how much of a stat padder I am.

HOWEVER, I will probably look for a team soon because I'm very experienced with elo and how to enjoy a team game with it.
Thanks though for being proof of certain types Im talking about

[Exoth3rmic]

Your assertion is, because of matchmaking, the quality of the matches we experience will be diminished from what it was when we were randomly grouped with other players (save for weight).

Given you mentioned you have yet to drop with a team - and only solo que, could you stop answering this thread and come back when you've played say - 15 games, and confirm whether the assertions you've made come true for you?

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 24 February 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[BigBadHarv]

Exoth3rmic, on 24 February 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Your assertion is, because of matchmaking, the quality of the matches we experience will be diminished from what it was when we were randomly grouped with other players (save for weight).

Given you mentioned you have yet to drop with a team - and only solo que, could you stop answering this thread and come back when you've played say - 15 games, and confirm whether the assertions you've made come true for you?

they will come true. I've played dozens of other games with teams and the change in quality from solo queue to team play is staggering.
I've played all weekend and noticed immediately the lack of quality. I didn't know what was going on at first, why players were flaming more and trolling. but of course, i saw that we now had an elo system and what naturally happens with that was taking effect. I've played games online for about 16/17 years and the majority of gamers now are the worst ive ever seen in terms of skill, manners and friendliness I've ever come across. The new generation is here and it turns out they are horrible little people and have far too much aggro.. but that is a topic for another day :s

Edited by BigBadHarv, 24 February 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Duckwalk]

Regardless if the skill of your teammates, the better a players is the more they will be able to positively affect the outcome of their games. The worse a player is the more they will negatively affect the games they play in.

What this translates into is good players with horrible luck and teammates will still be able to win a larger percentage of games than bad players with horrible luck or teammates. Bad players will drop faster than good players. Eventually over time and irregardless of luck or matchmaking, good players will rise to higher Elo and bad players will drop to lower Elo.

Will you play games where you top damage and kills and still lose? Where half your team puts up under 50 damage? Of course.

Focus on doing consistent high damage and helping your team win and over time such will be reflected in winrate and high Elo.

[BigBadHarv]

Duckwalk, on 24 February 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Regardless if the skill of your teammates, the better a players is the more they will be able to positively affect the outcome of their games. The worse a player is the more they will negatively affect the games they play in.

What this translates into is good players with horrible luck and teammates will still be able to win a larger percentage of games than bad players with horrible luck or teammates. Bad players will drop faster than good players. Eventually over time and irregardless of luck or matchmaking, good players will rise to higher Elo and bad players will drop to lower Elo.

Will you play games where you top damage and kills and still lose? Where half your team puts up under 50 damage? Of course.

Focus on doing consistent high damage and helping your team win and over time such will be reflected in winrate and high Elo.

ideally, yes. but its not always the case. the system is far too random for it to work like that. using elo is basically bolting on a matchmaking system that has zero relevance to 8v8 team games.
every time you press 'Launch' your elo is in fates hands

[Davers]

How is no matchmaking better than Elo?

You are worried about getting bad teammates, but how was it better before Elo?

People act like 8-0 losses only started with Elo.

[Duckwalk]

I think you're way over estimating the number of people that play 8 mans.

Furthermore, the idea that 8 mans will imbalance Elo would seem to based on the idea that bad players will have artificially high Elo by being carried by better groupmates. However, if you've play 8 mans you should recognize that they are generally much more competitive than the pug queue and playing with just one bad player will easily put a team at large disadvantage, often too large to overcome.

Sorry to crush your hope but bad players arnt going to have any easier time in 8 mans than they would in 4s or solo. Given time Elo will sort itself out. The good players will rise and the bad will fall, often dragging teammates down with them.

[KingNobody]

SlXSlXSlX, on 24 February 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

So a matching system based on skill/stats is bad? And leads to unfair matches?

And N. Korea doesn't have Nukes?

And congress is efficient/productive?

And tax cuts for the rich are good for the middle class?

I guess what your saying OP is elo is bad because, you say so? I dont see a line of logic to follow, and I read it 3x.

The guy in your example, well call him Mr. cant win... he loses and his elo drops, but its not him, its his teams fault, and then it repeats?

Im terrible, but racked 4 kills my first game today, prob a low elo match. I think your Mr. cant win, is a guy who should have a very low elo, it sounds like he has no impact on the success of his team, and as such, deserves a low ranking.

Tax cuts for the rich are OBVIOUSLY good for the middle class. What are you, some kinda communist? Helping the rich is the only way to help anybody, haven't you read "The Fountainhead"? Geez, some people just don't recognize that Ronald Reagan was the greatest mind of the 20th century. Einstein? Hah! Hawking? Pshaw! Reagan's got it all over them.