88 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

haruko, on 26 February 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Our scores were already supposed to be pre-seeded at the beginning of this month before they ever even added elo weren't they?

With about 2 weeks worth of data? I know people who didn't log in once during that time much less play enough games to alter their Elo.

Leimrey, on 26 February 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Except no amount of seeding will fix the weightclass disparity we're getting constantly, since the system apparently prioritizes player Elo score above the weight of the mech they are piloting, resulting in situations where 2 players of similar Elo may have to face each other while piloting mechs of absolutely different weightclasses.

Not playing will only make it worse. It is happening because it does take weight into account but as it finds it harder and harder to match scores it expands it's parameters wider and wider in skill and tonnage. They are thinking about putting in a Weight min/max which should help with that. Not playing though means fewer people, which means fewer people to match up, which means expanding the search parameters wider and creates the disparity.

[Fenix0742]

Gross tonnage imbalance made me not want to play 8 mans. Now that it's leaked into the only other available gamemode, I don't have any desire to play at all. Hopefully Dropship mode will give all players an equal amount of tonnage to play with, levelling the playing field, or I may drop this game entirely.

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Not playing though means fewer people, which means fewer people to match up, which means expanding the search parameters wider and creates the disparity.

And? I'm not getting paid to make the game better by playing matches all day.

[Leimrey]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Not playing will only make it worse. It is happening because it does take weight into account but as it finds it harder and harder to match scores it expands it's parameters wider and wider in skill and tonnage. They are thinking about putting in a Weight min/max which should help with that. Not playing though means fewer people, which means fewer people to match up, which means expanding the search parameters wider and creates the disparity.

Then PGi should give us an option to choose whether we want the matchmaker to keep expanding search parameters and end up in a potentially unbalanced match due to weight mismatch or not. Personally, I would rather wait 10 minutes for the game to find me a fun match, instead of playing 2 aneurysm inducing stomps with r******* teammates during that time interval. Of course, they will never do this, because the playerbase is most likely too small to implement an actually good matchmaker which reliably matches on both skill AND weightclass.

[xenoglyph]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

With about 2 weeks worth of data? I know people who didn't log in once during that time much less play enough games to alter their Elo.

People are assuming an awful lot. In finance we're big fans of moving averages. PGI would be really horribly stupid to NOT use an exponential moving average for the basis of their performance data.

[Mercules]

I suddenly noticed a lot of people complaining in this thread are from Kong.....

Did you guys spend your Elo seeding weeks in 4-mans?

[LaserAngel]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

I suddenly noticed a lot of people complaining in this thread are from Kong.....

Did you guys spend your Elo seeding weeks in 4-mans?

No, our win rate is lower now than in the past in 4-mans. There are fewer 8-0 steamrolls as well. We even had one match where it was a duel at the end.

Edited by LaserAngel, 26 February 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Fenix0742]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

I suddenly noticed a lot of people complaining in this thread are from Kong.....

Did you guys spend your Elo seeding weeks in 4-mans?

Because being in a 4 man has anything at all to do with 7 atlas drops vs assorted mediums, right?

[Leimrey]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

I suddenly noticed a lot of people complaining in this thread are from Kong.....

Did you guys spend your Elo seeding weeks in 4-mans?

I knew that some ignorant... uhm... person would make that comment sooner or later. Yes, a lot of us played 4mans along with solo drops and 8man drops, every unit or community did, there's nothing surprising about it. I hate the matchmaker not because I cannot cut it when dropping with my current Elo, but because I constantly get outweighed and have people on my team who are not anywhere close to the skill level of my opponents. I do not want to carry in a mech which is not suited for carrying, like some of the heavies or mediums I play, and I don't want to play assaults meant for carrying because I find heavies much more fun to play.

[Joseph Mallan]

Fenix0742, on 26 February 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Gross tonnage imbalance made me not want to play 8 mans. Now that it's leaked into the only other available gamemode, I don't have any desire to play at all. Hopefully Dropship mode will give all players an equal amount of tonnage to play with, levelling the playing field, or I may drop this game entirely.

And? I'm not getting paid to make the game better by playing matches all day.

Lets look at what my dropship would be:
FAtlas-D
Atlas-D-DC
Trebuchet-7M
Stalker-5S
That's pretty balanced right?

[Fenix0742]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 February 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

Lets look at what my dropship would be:
FAtlas-D
Atlas-D-DC
Trebuchet-7M
Stalker-5S
That's pretty balanced right?

335 tons...sorry nope, too heavy. Trial mechs hover around 230-240 tons, so I imagine that gives us a good template for what we'll get to play with. We already have some of the framework for it (selecting up to 4 mechs to be displayed on the right side of the mechlab) so that even new players will be on a somewhat even footing (discounting the horrendousness of trial mech performance). I also hope that they limit it to one mech "type" maximum as well, to promote diversity., otherwise we're looking at 3A1 and a 3L being a valid droplist.

[Mercules]

Fenix0742, on 26 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Because being in a 4 man has anything at all to do with 7 atlas drops vs assorted mediums, right?

Leimrey, on 26 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

I knew that some ignorant... uhm... person would make that comment sooner or later. Yes, a lot of us played 4mans along with solo drops and 8man drops, every unit or community did, there's nothing surprising about it. I hate the matchmaker not because I cannot cut it when dropping with my current Elo, but because I constantly get outweighed and have people on my team who are not anywhere close to the skill level of my opponents. I do not want to carry in a mech which is not suited for carrying, like some of the heavies or mediums I play, and I don't want to play assaults meant for carrying because I find heavies much more fun to play.

Wow... defensive much? Why is that?

I am fairly certain what I was attempting to imply is that your Elo is not matching up to other player's Elo scores. So if you are all dropping together still in a 4 man then it goes, High, High, High, High + whatever else. Your team's Elo score is now up there and it is going to have a hard time finding a proper match which means it is going to be casting a wider net on Weight.

[joedawg39s]

I got the opposite just now, I don't know how you can win in conquest against that fast of a team with no lights.

[Rina Fujimoto]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

I suddenly noticed a lot of people complaining in this thread are from Kong.....

Did you guys spend your Elo seeding weeks in 4-mans?

Actually, if you don't already know, KONG is a 4chan PUG group, not an actual clan or corp with any sense of structure or organization. Anyone is free to throw on the sig (regardless of if they actually play with us or not, Vass is a good example of this, he rarely plays with us but he usually hops in Vent just to chat) or join our vent.

A lot of KONG people are in this thread because I posted the link in the MWO thread on there right now, and the screen shot itself originates from the website.

So generalizing anyone based on the KONG sig is a exercise in futility.

And actually, I spent mine pub grinding because

a. I had premium time and waiting for people to come on vent to play while my time is ticking down would be a waste, especially when I had to grind for bucket money.
b. I explicitly wanted to avoid skewing my ELO score

And guess what.

It didn't really work.

Infact, I'll just get Vass in here later, that guy pub grinds 24/7 due to his insomnia and he's having the same problems we are.

Edited by haruko, 26 February 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Mercules]

haruko, on 26 February 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

KONG is a 4chan PUG group

That explains so much.


Look, as I stated, the devs have stated you are going to see mismatches from Elo because there is not enough data yet. Yes that does effect tonnage because if it can't match you properly it casts a wider and wider net. That isn't hard to understand. The only way to fix it is to PLAY.

[Fenix0742]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Look, as I stated, the devs have stated you are going to see mismatches from Elo because there is not enough data yet. Yes that does effect tonnage because if it can't match you properly it casts a wider and wider net. That isn't hard to understand. The only way to fix it is to PLAY.

No, it's not. A system that thinks that any of theses matches is OK is fundamentally broken. Until an engineer CHANGES the formula to prevent this from happening, it's not going to go away.

[Screech]

Have played only about 75 matches since Elo been out and overall the drops have improved immensely. I went through about 30 drops I took screenshots on and only 1 was the weight difference over 200 tons, oddly enough we lost that match because they fast capped us, go figure.

Elo has been a huge improvement overall.

[Mercules]

Fenix0742, on 26 February 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

No, it's not. A system that thinks that any of theses matches is OK is fundamentally broken. Until an engineer CHANGES the formula to prevent this from happening, it's not going to go away.

Do you know why it does that? Because people were complaining about it taking more than 4 minutes to find a match and how valuable their time was. So they decided to let it find those matches and it is. Now we are complaining it lets us find those matches... lets have them revert it back to taking forever to find a match.... so we can complain some more.

More balancing with Elo and the other changes they stated are coming will help, would you Chicken-Little people please have some patience?

[Agent 0 Fortune]

The Match Maker definately needs some hard caps to prevent that kind of a blowout.
I'm actually surprised the bottom team sat througn the 3 minutes it must have taken the matchmaker to put that crapfest totgether.

It won't take too many episodes of this before people beging disconnecting from the MM after 30 seconds.

[Leimrey]

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Wow... defensive much? Why is that?

Well, I dunno, maybe because almost every thread with Elo criticism involves someone who feels it necessary to accuse players who are having problems with the matchmaker of having inflated Elo?

Mercules, on 26 February 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

I am fairly certain what I was attempting to imply is that your Elo is not matching up to other player's Elo scores. So if you are all dropping together still in a 4 man then it goes, High, High, High, High + whatever else. Your team's Elo score is now up there and it is going to have a hard time finding a proper match which means it is going to be casting a wider net on Weight.

I'm not dropping in 4mans anymore, because doing so requires the entire 4man team to be in solid, carry compatible mechs like DDCs or A1s, since we will face another 4man in assaults or heavies (or an all Raven 3L premade I get now and then) most of the time and many of us want to d*** around in hunchbacks or buckets. Most of the guys in our group play casually, just for fun and I do not want to screw up their fun by adding my Elo to their own. I play almost exclusively solo drops now and I think I have the right to complain when I'm matched with assault players who can barely break 200 damage while the enemy players consistently deal over 300-400, no matter the mech. And I'm not even taking into account the weight mismatch I get often.

Edited by Leimrey, 26 February 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[Jacmac]

mattkachu, on 25 February 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

unrelated: it was a close game, It could have been anyone's game 3 minutes in...

Related: All matches are close games until the premades begin crushing the pug group.