42 replies to this topic

[Rakashan]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Since I started my TBT 7M and replaced the narc with TAG I really have little problem with ECM Ravens and Atlas(s?). But no matter what my team or the other team complains about ECM decided the match.

...

God forbid PGI made TAG and NARC do something its supposed to do....

First, NARC is completely countered by ECM.

Second, TAG does not counter ECM. It counters one portion of ECM. The TAGger cannot be inside the ECM bubble or his tag does not even help him. Apparently ECM also scrambles lasers, not just radio signals to other mechs. In order to use TAG, the TAGger must 1. get and maintain Line of Sight to the target (opening himself up to return fire). 2. target, hit and maintain hit on the target. 3. carry or have a teammate carrying missiles. In order for ECM to function, the user must... Mount it on a mech.

The costs in terms of weight and space are not comparable. The impact on the game is not comparable. Regardless of whether or not people can deal with ECM (I routinely hunt RVN-3Ls for sport), the device is not balanced. Leave all the functionality in game, just make it cost what it should. 5+ tons and 5 crit slots... 20,000 GXP and 3 module slots. etc.

Heck, just make the other items as useful as ECM. AMS costs the same weight and space at a minimum for a miniscule reduction in damage from missiles. ECM is more effective against missiles *and* provides a whole bunch of information warfare functions as well. Buff TAG, NARC, BAP and AMS until they are as useful or make ECM more expensive. Simple enough. Anything less is a mockery of the concept of balance.

[Ransack]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

If your a light or medium scout why aren't you carrying TAG or something?

Because if I shoot a TAG at an opposing Light mechs leg, I have to HOPE that, someone even has LRM's and that those LRM's will hit it in a few seconds. I don't have that worry with a laser in that spot. Space is at a premium. I can't afford to waste the tonnage on a wish.

edit.

I tried using a TAG on my Stalker. I scrapped it when I had someone tagged but could still not get a lock to fire streaks. TAG give you a Target, not a lock. ECM breaks lock on ability, so TAG is not a fully effective counter. It's more effective to just grab another ecm, and run in, hitting the J key with weapons blazing.

Edited by Ransack, 26 February 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[One Medic Army]

I only mount TAG on my LRM using mechs, and my PPC stalker.
Why would I mount a TAG to counter ECM on any of my fast brawlers who need to close inside 180 where TAG no longer functions?
I'd just be depriving them of an additional weapon that could kill things faster.

Throwing a TAG on my Jenners is laughable, I need all the firepower I can get to deal with ECM lights. If they're far off I just use textchat and tell the team where.

[Voridan Atreides]

It would be nice to see more TAG on the battlefield. I just think that many people do not know how it works.

[Yokaiko]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Since I started my TBT 7M and replaced the narc with TAG I really have little problem with ECM Ravens and Atlas(s?). But no matter what my team or the other team complains about ECM decided the match.

If people feel that way how come we don't see more mechs equip narc or TAG? Anytime I see a heavy mech being harassed be smaller ECM mechs i just TAG'em and I get a lock.

God forbid PGI made TAG and NARC do something its supposed to do....

I know brawlers may not feel TAG justifies a spot in their arsenal, but do you want to win or do you want your rear armor handed to you?

If your a light or medium scout why aren't you carrying TAG or something?

TAG doesn't justify anything if the mech is a light that can bubble you.

.....because TAG does jack and **** when you are inside 180m.

[Noth]

Voridan Atreides, on 26 February 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

It would be nice to see more TAG on the battlefield. I just think that many people do not know how it works.

No people know how it works, just it is often not worth giving up a hardpoint for. All it takes a TAG coming off of the target for a split second and you lose that lock you worked for. You further hope that people will target it in time to have the missile be effective. The only ones that fall prey to TAG are the same ones that would fall prey to LRMs before ECM. It is stupidly easy to mitigate TAG just like it was stupidly easy to mitigate LRMs before (not during the artemis madness day) ECM.

[Livewyr]

Voridan Atreides, on 26 February 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

It would be nice to see more TAG on the battlefield. I just think that many people do not know how it works.

The reason I stopped bringing TAG to the battlefield unless I had missiles:

I have to constantly keep my laser on the ECM'd mech in order to target it: during that time:
I have more difficulty maneuvering because I have to keep my reticle pointed in one direction.
I am not engaging any other mech.

The one passive piece of equipment effectively has control of my mech so long as I try to do that.

[Mercules]

Voridan Atreides, on 26 February 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

It would be nice to see more TAG on the battlefield. I just think that many people do not know how it works.

Or they play alone and realize if no one else takes advantage of it they could drop a Medium Laser on instead and gain 5 more burst damage. Just duoing with one other player with LRMs has lead me to see the uses of TAG. Yes, ECM is implemented wrong and not by TT standards and rules at all... but to just shrug and go "Can only beat with more ECM." is wrong. Bring all the tools you can to beat it. I bring both ECM and TAG.

[Vasces Diablo]

ECM: 1.5 tons, 2 crit slots (can stash it in CT) always active, 100k+ square meter area of effect.

TAG as a counter: 1 ton, takes an energy hard point and requires you to keep a visible beam on a moving target for an extended period of time while exposed to enemy fire, can be blocked by terrain and other mechs.

I'm not saying TAG is useless, he'll its required on any LRM mech, but to call it any kind of a hard counter to ECM is questionable.

[Skunk Wolf]

Here's an idea:

Beagle Active Probe blasts through Gaurdian ECM at <90-180M. Everyone can mount it, doesn't take up an energy slot, and will force light mech pilots to play smarter.

ECM loses disrupt.

Edit: then your TAG will work at point blank.

Edited by Skunk Wolf, 26 February 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[TAsme]

I do shoot for 3L Ravens with my LRM Cat through Tag.I hold them in sights and aim tag at them and get relatively fast locks. its also good for calling focusfire on a target and reveals DDC´s 3L´s usw when pointed at them.

[Mercules]

Vasces Diablo, on 26 February 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I'm not saying TAG is useless, he'll its required on any LRM mech, but to call it any kind of a hard counter to ECM is questionable.

I don't think anyone is even implying it is a hard counter. I think we are pointing out that it helps more than people consider.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I like TAG. I use it in lieu of another ton of ammo in my LRM boat. But it is VERY frustrating to have an ECM Raven/Spider/Cicada able to stop me from shooting missiles, when targets are 500-1000 away from me.

It's just not fun. But I do use it. ECM > TAG though.

[Livewyr]

Skunk Wolf, on 26 February 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

Here's an idea:

Beagle Active Probe blasts through Gaurdian ECM at <90-180M. Everyone can mount it, doesn't take up an energy slot, and will force light mech pilots to play smarter.

ECM loses disrupt.

Edit: then your TAG will work at point blank.

Umm.. that's called ECCM..

Clearly not enough.

[Praehotec8]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Since I started my TBT 7M and replaced the narc with TAG I really have little problem with ECM Ravens and Atlas(s?). But no matter what my team or the other team complains about ECM decided the match.

What do you do when you are running LRM support/flanking maneuvers in your TBT and are somewhat isolated from your team and get hounded by a raven with ECM and streaks? TAG is worthless if the light is close to you, and if you are carrying an LRM setup you likely have little more than a couple of MLs to defend yourself. Even with a fast TBT you can't run away, and killing a light with only MLs takes more skill than it takes the light to dance around you with streaks (granted I use a joystick so holding a laser on target is tough but even with a mouse...).

How does an A-1 cat use TAG in a PUG? Remember, the A-1 is supposed to be an LRM support mech. ECM is THE primary reason that everyone started using splatcats....the streakpult was now worthless and LRM cats almost as bad.

The issue is that ECM give you a few matches where a single light can totally shut down your heavy or assault mech for the balance of the game, sometimes without even showing its face to you. The biggest problems to me seems to be that it renders even TAG useless within an ECM mech's range, and that lights with ECM can carry streaks and use them when others can't (this just adds insult to injury).

Regardless of if youy feel ECM is an "I win" button, it's not objectively well balanced for what it does and what is costs to run it and the benefits it gives ALWAYS outweighs the costs. I still run mechs with some LRMs, and have tried boats or LRMS.

Edited by Praehotec8, 26 February 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Duckwalk]

I run tag on my Raven 3L instead of a 3rd ML.

Better heat efficiency. Tag for missiles. Faster lock on times for my own streaks. And the ability to get lock and use streaks against enemy ECM scouts outside of counter range.

Those extra 2-3 volleys before scouts close to knife fighting range can really decide a fight.

[Yankee77]

Tag works against distant targets that are cloaked.

That's fine.

Tag does NOT work when an ECM light gets within 180 meters of you and disables one of your main weapon systems by sole virtue of being able to load a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.

Take away the disrupt effect, and I guarantee you people wouldn't complain NEARLY as much about ECM. But then that's to be expected, when disrupt's primary effect is to degrade the gameplay experience of the affected players. No wonder most people hate it. But it's far worse if you're an LRM user. It completely disables your weapons (aside from dumbfire, which is not valid due to the ludicrously slow speed of LRMs).

I personally don't mind the cloak, as it DOES add to the tactical depth. But the disrupt effect is egrerious, and dangerously anachronistic in modern game design.

[Lykaon]

Reith Dynamis, on 26 February 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Since I started my TBT 7M and replaced the narc with TAG I really have little problem with ECM Ravens and Atlas(s?). But no matter what my team or the other team complains about ECM decided the match.

If people feel that way how come we don't see more mechs equip narc or TAG? Anytime I see a heavy mech being harassed be smaller ECM mechs i just TAG'em and I get a lock.

God forbid PGI made TAG and NARC do something its supposed to do....

I know brawlers may not feel TAG justifies a spot in their arsenal, but do you want to win or do you want your rear armor handed to you?

If your a light or medium scout why aren't you carrying TAG or something?

I'm not sure if you fully understand what ECM does.

If you have direcct LOS to a sensor cloaked mech and you have TAG and you can hit the target and keep it painted with TAG then and only then the one mech painted with TAG is visable to the rest of your team on sensors.

Meanwhile the mech with ECM is passivley cloaking the other 7 mechs that are not TAGed.This ECM effect does not take up an energy hardpoint,does not require LOS and certainly does not require the ECM to be aimed.Passive ECM still has a benificial effect for the other 7 mechs therefore calling TAG a countermeasure to ECM is a huge exageration.TAG is an ECM mitigator.

Then we have the issue with,What if an enemy ECM closes to withing 180m of the TAG equiped unit? What happens? TAG is now Jammed by ECM because at close range ECM counters it's own counter in TAG.

Now I will point out some potent ECM effects that are not effected by TAG in the slightest.
Even if the mech equiped with ECM is TAGed this does nothing to prevent ECM from providing sensor jamming.This provides a "cloak" for friendlies,prevents data sharing between hostiles and probably the most overlooked effect,ECM removes IFF and friendly possitional data from the mini map.

TAG only makes the TAGed target vulnerable to missile lock and it becomes visable to others,unless of course the enemy puts an ECM within 180m of the TAG then it's lights out as ussual.Because while TAG is a mitigator against ECM ECM is an actual counter to TAG.

[Mercules]

Hey! Wow!

We know how ECM works. We know it is better than TAG. We get it.

What the OP has said is that TAG does help some. Probably not enough and ECM is still broken, but if you have the space use TAG.

[Xie Belvoule]

Itkovian, on 26 February 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Tag works against distant targets that are cloaked.

That's fine.

Tag does NOT work when an ECM light gets within 180 meters of you and disables one of your main weapon systems by sole virtue of being able to load a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.

Take away the disrupt effect, and I guarantee you people wouldn't complain NEARLY as much about ECM. But then that's to be expected, when disrupt's primary effect is to degrade the gameplay experience of the affected players. No wonder most people hate it. But it's far worse if you're an LRM user. It completely disables your weapons (aside from dumbfire, which is not valid due to the ludicrously slow speed of LRMs).

I personally don't mind the cloak, as it DOES add to the tactical depth. But the disrupt effect is egrerious, and dangerously anachronistic in modern game design.

This^