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The Problem With State Rewind & "3L Will Be Less Desirable"


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#41 Wintersdark

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:12 AM

I imagine that PGI's angle here is not that state rewind will directly nerf the 3L more than other lights, but that state rewind will make lasers better.

Currently, Streaks are ideal for highspeed duels because they don't miss. Once players with laser based lights can more readily hit the 3L's, the light to light balance will be altered.

The 3L's ECM is meaningless in a duel against a light without Streaks. So, that Jenner/Raven duel? The Jenner can put out much higher, more accurate DPS than the Raven, and actually connect with it. Currently, that's not really the case, because it's extremely complicated to accurately hit a Raven.

Thus, it stands to reason that PGI wants to see how light balance settles down once State Rewind is in, and Streak vs. Laser balance is altered.

#42 employee24601

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:23 AM

View PostChrisOrange, on 26 February 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

The only lag shields that I don't like are the euro/australian players that think it's a good idea to keep an American client/account.


Is there another option is there??? I must have missed the "Select your server region" option before launch... o_O

#43 maxmarechal

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:24 AM

View PostChrisOrange, on 26 February 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

The only lag shields that I don't like are the euro/australian players that think it's a good idea to keep an American client/account.

must have missed a part of the story as, as far as i know we have no choice at the moment.?!NO EU or AUS servers me think?...
and we may have lag helping us on lights but you have low ping for your gauss and er-ppc phracts....!!!!!!

#44 Broad5ide

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:27 AM

View PostZaptruder, on 26 February 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Just nerf their speed. 115 w/ speed tweak max. Same for the Commando 2D.

You want ECM? Sure. You want Streaks? Go ahead!

You're going to have trouble keeping up with lights and lag shielding yourself against heavies and assaults.

Simple tweak that at worst, nerfs 2 mechs heavily, leaving the rest of the systems and mechs untouched.

this makes no sense considering you can get a centurion to go that fast and an awesome to 90

Edited by Broad5ide, 27 February 2013 - 03:28 AM.


#45 OneEyed Jack

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 03:52 AM

View PostTopDawg, on 26 February 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:


Also, I have not experienced the hitbox problems concerning the 3L, both as someone who has piloted them and as someone who shoots at them.


Glad I'm not the only one. Yes I have a Raven. No, I don't pilot it, or any light, very often. I'm certainly shooting at them a whole lot more than I'm being shot at in one, and I've never had any more trouble hitting them with direct fire than a Jenner, and find them considerably easier to hit than a Commando or Spider, with their tiny size. Since pretty much every description of the "hit box issue" I've seen describes people watching shots hit with no damage, I can only surmise it's due to crappy aim and not understanding the lag shield.

People, quit watching the impact and watch the little red circle. If that lights up, you hit. I've dodged shots before by jinking to the side when I expected them, and watched the shot fly by, only to have armor suddenly disappear. I've also watched shots fly wide on targets, but still get damage. The only visual clue that matters is the little circle.

View PostDoc Holliday, on 26 February 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:


The JR7-D can't mount double SRM6's because both missile hard points are CT. The best you can do is two SRM4's. As for firing an SRM6 through a narc tube one missile at a time... that can actually be useful, as you continue to blast the mech and keep them rocking (and unable to aim well) for an extended period of time.

The only time this works is against relatively slow mechs that can't move out of the way, or spraying missiles across the path of one moving quickly. Other than that it's pretty much crap and no use at all in a light vs light fight. As to the cockpit shake, they drastically reduced that when they set it to be damage dependent, and it's not really an issue from single SRMs.

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 27 February 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

Other weapons will catch up a bit, but Streak Cats were not just dangerous Lag Shielded Lights - every mech had problems with that. A Streak Cat wasn't fast enough for (notable) Lag SHields. But it sure had the manevuerability and the speed to make aiming non-trivial, and giving it the option to to torso twist to direct attacks at less vital areas, while maintaining lock was not as difficult as consistent aiming and hitting weak spots on the Catapult.

Streak Cats really only worked because of the broken cockpit shake when they were chain-fired. Without that they aren't difficult to hit.

I've seen several people supporting the idea of nerfing the specific variants that carry ECM. Aside from that fact that y'all should really stop using the word "nerf" until after you figure out what it means, because you just make yourselves look dumb, it's not gonna happen. For those that couldn't manage to connect the dots, the variants that got ECM were picked because they were already the high-tech variants of those available in their chassis. Think about it like a car. When the hot new audio tech comes out, the manufacturer doesn't recall all the land yachts they built in the 80's to install it in. They put it in the hot, new sports cars just being built. They sure as hell don't sit around the board room suggesting that it should get a smaller engine to make the older models more enticing.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 27 February 2013 - 03:53 AM.


#46 Scrad

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 04:54 AM

And when there is not a light to be seen on the battlefield ever the job will finally be done ;)

#47 Hekalite

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:18 AM

At around 40 ping, hitting lights including the Raven is not that bad. Occasionally I will find one that is seeminly invincible, but it's pretty rare with a low ping. Once state rewind goes in, a lot more people will have a similar gaming experience. I understand why the devs want to take a wait and see approach before making wholesale changes to game balance. There are a lot of obvious game balance issues, but unfortunately the fixes may not be as obvious, especially when lag is a factor for the majority of players.

#48 BigJim

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:30 AM

Agreed with the OP - as long as ECM and Streaks can be mounted on the Raven, nothing will make it less desireable. It's already the only Light in the game worth a damn.

Either remove it's missile hardpoints totally (and then all you'd do is make the Commando 2D the only Light worth a damn) or better yet, make Streaks back to how they were in Closed Beta.

Job done, in a stroke.

But that's way too much sensible for one day, so it'll never happen.


Lag isn't a major factor, no matter how much people try to blame it.
Lights are easy to hit.
The problem is, you can't hit them *enough* in the same time as it's perma-spam auto-aim missile will hit you.

You have to do this quaint little thing called "aiming", and ensure you're pointing the right way, that your lasers' burn-time is timed just right to hold the beam over a fast moving target, and that when it circles you, you don't just catch a glancing blow because of said burn-time.

On the other hand, all the Raven needs to do is periodically touch his crosshairs over you to renew his lock, and the streaks will bend space and time in order to auto-hit for max damage, all the time.

It's not even a worthy comparison.

So no - nothing anybody does to movement, to netcode, mech-quirks, not to anything, will make a jot of difference to the fact the Raven 3L is the de-facto Light mech in this game,until Streaks are made reasonable again.

And I say this as a regular Raven pilot - about 99% of my 4000 matches since Open beta have been in Ravens for the above reasons (i'm a light pilot and I pilot what works).

Edited by BigJim, 27 February 2013 - 06:37 AM.


#49 Josef Nader

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:32 AM

Streaks in CB only hit CT and never missed. Why in the name of mike would we go back to that?

Second, the 3L cannocally has a NARC launcher and an SRM6. What are they supposed to do, say 'lol balancing is for chumps. we just no let u do dis."

#50 BigJim

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:44 AM

View PostJosef Nader, on 27 February 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

Streaks in CB only hit CT and never missed. Why in the name of mike would we go back to that?


They did 1.25 DMG per missile, and they sometimes did miss.
Their turning-circle was still tighter than a light mech's, but you had to at least point them in the right direction otherwise a mech turning counter to the missile would be outside the missile's turning-circle & thus it would miss it's target.

We only had Jenners back then, so I'll have to use the Jenn as my example, but the really top-level light pilots used the Jenner-F with lasers (and used their skill in lag-shooting), while the regular light pilots used the F or Jenn-D with Streaks.

Good pilots with Streaks learned to even lead thier streaks, so that it would have more room to maneuver, and thus ensure a hit.

Both were a viable option, and I played many a competition-level unit back in CB who ran a Jenner F and D in a 2/2/2/2 match-up.


Nowadays? I wouldn't let a scout run with me if he wasn't bringing a Rav-3L with Streaks to the table - it wouldn't be happening.


*EDIT* Also, Streaks (occasionally) hit the side torsos as well now, you're right about that.
..And considering their main target is Lights with XL engines, this only makes them *more* lethal, not less, because the main cause of death for any Light mech is losing a side torso - not the CT, nor the legs (if he's any good).

Edited by BigJim, 27 February 2013 - 06:51 AM.


#51 Josef Nader

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:44 AM

Yeah, the torso hitboxes are screwy and do too good a job of spreading damage with minimal effort from the Raven pilot.

#52 Fut

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:46 AM

View PostChrisOrange, on 26 February 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I've personally not had problems hitting 3L's so any lag shield that's happening doesn't seem to affect me.


There's something weird about this 'Mech, although I'm not certain what it actually is.

Was in a match a couple nights ago where myself and another 'Mech pounded on a 3L (ECM, fancy paint scheme) for quite awhile. I know I hit it dead on a few times - as it was focused on my teammate and barely moving at the time (not to mention all the glancing blows it received from both of us as it ran around). Yet it suffered almost no damage at all. This little guy took us both out, then made it's way to the last two members on my team, destroying another one before it was finally taken out.

Last night I was playing around with a new (for me) 'Mech build, hit a 3L in the face with an AC20 at <100m. Didn't seem to phase it at all.

The problem doesn't seem to be with hitting them, it's about how the damage is applied/not applied.

#53 Josef Nader

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:55 AM

Yeah, I've noticed stuff like that too with the 3L. There's definitely something screwy with it, and it doesn't seem to take damage like it should. When I chase Jenners or 'Mandos with my LPL light hunter Treb their armor just melts off by the ton. Doing the exact same thing to a Raven seems to take three times as long to kill, and not because the pilot is more skilled or I'm missing more shots.

#54 TopDawg

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:23 AM

Ravens, other than their 'hit sections' (that Thontor posted), have no different hitboxes than any other Light Mech, or any more of a lagshield than other light Mechs going the same speed. It's simply a psychological side effect at this point (call it confirmation bias if you wish).

#55 Fooooo

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:36 AM

Is that pic accurate Thontor ?

Do ravens CT really extend to their........."jewel bag".......for lack of a better term ? ;)

If thats the case it seems like a much better target than trying to hit the beak to get the CT....(I generally just try to leg every light as its almost impossible to get most of them with CT cores with the lead I need, the raven is much worse than the others.)

#56 Josef Nader

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostTopDawg, on 27 February 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Ravens, other than their 'hit sections' (that Thontor posted), have no different hitboxes than any other Light Mech, or any more of a lagshield than other light Mechs going the same speed. It's simply a psychological side effect at this point (call it confirmation bias if you wish).


Like I said, it's just something I've noticed. They seem to take a lot more effort to kill than other lights. If I had any hard data to back this up, I would have.

It could be that their legs are slimmer than the Jenner's and they lack the center mass to leg ratio of the Spider and Commando (both are tiny, but they have solid torso sections). Because the raven is 2/3rds leg, and their legs are skinny, a lot less damage from raking lasers than the Jenner. This could equate to less overall damage for the same effort, which makes them harder to kill with the techniques I'm using.

Edited by Josef Nader, 27 February 2013 - 07:44 AM.


#57 Vasces Diablo

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 08:13 AM

If these other items are truely issues (I'm not debating that they are/are not) removing the lag shield removes a giant variable and allows for a much more clear assessment. If their data shows that 3Ls still dominate the light selection, then further steps can be taken.

Baby steps, not pendulum swings.

#58 Trauglodyte

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostEwigan, on 27 February 2013 - 12:20 AM, said:

Actually i do like Zaptruders idea a lot, i really wonder why it never occured to me :S

Just nerf their max speed, for Com-2D and RVN-3L!

They can keep the ECM, the streaks, no probs. They just do not run 150 kp/h anymore.


Technically, you need to nerf the speed of all Commandos and the 3L. Hell, both were supposed to be stuck at 94kph anyway. Going an additional 60% speed is absolutely ******** given that they get ECM and ezmode missile damage.

#59 Vasces Diablo

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:53 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 27 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:


Technically, you need to nerf the speed of all Commandos and the 3L. Hell, both were supposed to be stuck at 94kph anyway. Going an additional 60% speed is absolutely ******** given that they get ECM and ezmode missile damage.


I've always been of the opinion the customization should have been held to a minimum. If you want to swap an XL for a standard, that's fine, but upping engine rating, even with caps in place, for a 40%-50% increase in speed is too much. It's along the lines of replacing a machine gun with an AC 20.

#60 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:09 AM

View PostVasces Diablo, on 27 February 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

I've always been of the opinion the customization should have been held to a minimum. If you want to swap an XL for a standard, that's fine, but upping engine rating, even with caps in place, for a 40%-50% increase in speed is too much. It's along the lines of replacing a machine gun with an AC 20.

1) Customizing mechs is fun. Why do you hate fun?
2) XL Engine for STD Engine is one of the changest that make the least sense to me, because an XL Engine is a lot larger (50 %!) than a normal engine. And you're supposed to be able to do that more easy? Next think you're telling me all the internal structure in a mech must be easy to replace.

Don't nerf customization. Nerf unbalanced items and mechanics.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 February 2013 - 10:09 AM.






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