104 replies to this topic

[Tennex]

The good builds in this game shouldn't be called cheese. cheese has a good chance to fail.

The builds used are optimized. sure its cheap, but its also guaranteed to win. unlike cheese.


Min/Max is a part of any competitive game.

[Sybreed]

valkyrie, on 26 February 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

Because they disgust me. We're playing a game that gives you almost complete control of your ride, and I'm supposed to play one of a handful of "proven" builds just to avoid dying a horrible, fiery death in every match? **** that.

Funny how the ability to customize everything made everyone use the same builds over and over again. Restricting the game to stock variants would have brought more diversity to the game than what we have now.

A shame really...

[Mawai]

Honestly ... the only mechs, in my opinion, that are really overpowered are the Raven-3L ... and the Streakcat and LRM boats when ECM was not in play. Almost all the other "cheese" builds that can be very effective usually also have weaknesses that can be exploited. Usually, rushing at these mechs head on is a bad idea ... though I have seen many folks do just that.

Splat cat (short range - convergence/grouping issues of missile spread)
Dual AC20 K2 (short range, slow)
Dual Gauss K2 (slow)
6PPC Stalker (slow, overheat issues)

Also ... all of these require some skill in aiming ... which SSRMs and LRMs do not. In addition, if you are moving then you are much harder to hit with the aimed weapons ... SSRMs and LRMs do not have this issue either.

At the present time, the only thing holding SSRMs and LRMs in check is the existence of ECM. Two unbalanced weapon systems being reigned in by one unbalanced module on a limited selection of mechs.

[Sug]

Stop typing Elo in all caps. It's a guy's name.

[Critical Fumble]

valkyrie, on 26 February 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Yeah, Vass was bragging about that for a long time before ELO went live. Still, am I the only one who sees that's an issue? It's like you get punished for playing casually with friends.

Elo is a noob, give him some time to acclimate. PGI indicated that they're keeping an eye on it, so you'll likely see tweaks in the near future. I'm half hoping for a by mech or by build Elo modifier, maybe a Elo modifier for teams for each player, and things in general to make it better.

[Ghost_19Hz]

Well bad news everyone: If you are good and wanted to play casually and still win, you are SOL.

[valkyrie]

Tennex, on 26 February 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

The builds used are optimized. sure its cheap, but its also guaranteed to win. unlike cheese.

And that's a gigantic problem.

[Dock Steward]

C - Can't
H - Hit
E - Ergo
E - Espouse
S - Silly
E - Excuses


I don't believe in cheese.

Edited by Dock Steward, 26 February 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[valkyrie]

Dock Steward, on 26 February 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

C - Can't
H - Hit
E - Ergo
E - Espouse
S - Silly
E - Excuses


I don't believe in cheese.

Says the guy whose namesake ClickyTech 'Mech had ridiculous, near-gamebreaking damage output and defense in forest terrain.

[Critical Fumble]

valkyrie, on 26 February 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Says the guy whose namesake ClickyTech 'Mech had ridiculous, near-gamebreaking damage output and defense in forest terrain.

But then they patched in Agent Orange, and everything was OK again. . .

[SpiralRazor]

you raise some valid points, but mostly what i hear is Cry, Cry.



Elo will make the game better...there is no counter argument. It just needs to take more metrics into effect.

[valkyrie]

SpiralRazor, on 26 February 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

you raise some valid points, but mostly what i hear is Cry, Cry.



Elo will make the game better...there is no counter argument. It just needs to take more metrics into effect.

I already gave my counter argument. Your "argument" is just "well you're just bad!" which is...really not an argument at all.

[Rhent]

valkyrie, on 26 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

I think figured out what the single biggest issue with ELO is. Aside from the obvious tonnage matching issue, it's the fact that for mid to high ranked players, it's now become "cheese or die."

Right now, I'm trying to play a Treb -7M. I'm not doing it for high scores or for street cred, I'm doing it for fun. Normally I don't play LRM boats, especially not one as starved for tonnage as a Treb, but I love my Mediums. I do ok with it, for an LRM boat. A kill here, 400 damage there. Not bad considering I usually roll my Founder's Hunchback with a totally different playstyle. The problem is that I'm usually the only one doing that well, since I've got a pretty good ELO thanks to dropping with Kong (which, despite being a glorified PUG group more than anything, I can at least trust not to use awful builds), occasionally running something horribly OP like a Splatcat or Raven -3L, and generally being a pretty decent pilot.

ELO (to my understanding) matches based on skill and balances teams accordingly. That means I could drop in a game with a moderately good ELO, but be grouped up with a bunch of newbies who have no experience or awful builds, and the other team gets "ok" players who have all just discovered D-DCs, Raven -3Ls, and Jumpphracts. Needless to say, we get slaughtered.

But, that's not the only issue. Now, let's say I'm dropping with Kong. Kong, being a group that discusses builds at length and tends to play fairly often, probably has a moderate ELO score in most cases. Let's say I drop with 3 other Kong members, like we've done every night for months now. I'm still in my Treb. Kong, with a few exceptions, tends to avoid "cheesebuilds." The rest of the community doesn't really share this viewpoint. We drop against an equally skilled team...who is all using cookie cutter cheese builds that everyone on these forums complain about. Again, we get steamrolled.

Now, let's assume PGI gets weight balancing back in the game. Hooray! I drop in my "meh" Treb, and three others drop in usable Catapult -C1s, Hunchback -4SPs, and maybe Vass or Connor drops in a D-DC like usual. The enemy, being equally skilled, knows the ins and outs of the game, and takes a Boomcat, SRM Centbomb, and a D-DC or 6 PPC Stalker. Guess how this one is probably going to end?

See, the problem is twofold - even if you could take the "skill weighting" out of the equation and ensure equally skilled opponents rather than "1 good player and 7 morons vs. 8 ok players", you still have the issue of ELO not balancing builds - at best, it'll balance weight (eventually). In essence, the longer I stay out of a CheeseMech, the more my team suffers, because other players of my skill WILL be using them. Taking anything that isn't a tried and true, borderline-broken build becomes a handicap in matches of equal skill. It's the Chromehounds effect all over again - customization goes out the window because uniqueness gets you killed in most cases.

I'm not naive enough to think this wasn't an issue in Phase 2 matchmaking, but it is worse now. In Phase 2, I could take a Medium 'Mech and know that there's going to be a Medium on the other team. Now? Could be a Medium...or it could be a Splatcat. Or worse. And, in a perfect world, they'll be every bit as good as I am, unrestrained by their choice of 'Mech.

PGI really needs to re-evaluate the use of ELO in MWO. The more I play now, the more I realize it's doing far more harm than good. Right now, it's just going to further homogenize 'Mech choice (especially in PUGs), and we all know stagnation is the quickest way to kill a game.

With ELO implemented to me, the game got a lot easier. Of course, I've pugged exclusively, so I'm sure that helped as well. Either way, since ELO has been implemented, I've gotten to see a lot of "special" players. The game is a lot more interesting to say the least.

[Teralitha]

I have yet to try using any of these cheese builds you speak of, but I have faced them many times. And I still fail to empathize with your problem....

Based on your comments, Im leaning toward..... your just not as good as you believe you are. OR your choice in mech builds is ineffective and you should try new things that may work better.

[Brilig]

It seems like this is less an issue with Elo, and more of an issue with Cheese builds. If anything Elo should help PGI track and address cheese builds.

I think PGI (in their own time) will address cheese builds. They did with the gauss cat. It took for ever, and I think they went overboard, but they did.

The ask the Devs posts say that weapon balance is always subject to change. I am sure they are looking into making sure that boating builds get balanced one way or another. I wish they would talk more about it. Though I am sure that would just start a balance war every time they tried.

[valkyrie]

Teralitha, on 26 February 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I have yet to try using any of these cheese builds you speak of, but I have faced them many times. And I still fail to empathize with your problem....

Based on your comments, Im leaning toward..... your just not as good as you believe you are. OR your choice in mech builds is ineffective and you should try new things that may work better.

I just got out of a game where half my team failed to break 100 damage, and the enemy team got 3 ECM 'Mechs. I still made it near the top of the board in my "fun" CN9-AL. This is an issue - I'm being punished for playing with people I enjoy spending time with, because I'm expected to bring the "perfect builds" to carry my team.

[Gallowglas]

I can't say that elo has really reduced or added to the so-called "cheese" builds I see in an average match. The only trend I have been seeing is a lean back toward LRM boats.

[Rhent]

Brilig, on 26 February 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

It seems like this is less an issue with Elo, and more of an issue with Cheese builds. If anything Elo should help PGI track and address cheese builds.

I think PGI (in their own time) will address cheese builds. They did with the gauss cat. It took for ever, and I think they went overboard, but they did.

The ask the Devs posts say that weapon balance is always subject to change. I am sure they are looking into making sure that boating builds get balanced one way or another. I wish they would talk more about it. Though I am sure that would just start a balance war every time they tried.

Look at the AC/20 nerf that Piranha put in, they went back on it and gave the AC/20 some health again. Even with the health buff, the AC/20 still breaks too easy.

I have no clue what Piranha is doing for weapon balance. I'm just playing the game they gave us.

[Xyroc]

I have no problem getting kills or wins without a "cheese build" I dont build them but I also dont consider anything cheese I find its weakness and/or focus it first

Edited by Beliall, 26 February 2013 - 10:50 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

I really care less about elo. I knew I wasn't gonna do crap in this tourny so I played my new trebs to up them. Got my fast one elite'ed and after seeing the amount of matches played to win the tourney I'm glad. I played around 100 matches this weekend and the winners were almost at 500. However, I now have a treb that matches my fast cent-D. I am good!

edit: As to Elo i think I now have alot of great matches now. Started way hard early, went to easy and now I think its good.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 26 February 2013 - 10:57 PM.