104 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Welcome to Casual Mechwarrior Online Beta!

[aptest]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 February 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Funny. I thought Elo was going to rate MY ability not the builds?

The two are not distinct. Your choice of builds/mechs have a direct influence over your ability to beat other players and affect the game's outcome. Elo measures the sum of your decisions over the game's outcome, including the interaction between you'r choice of mech and build and the game's result.

[Ghogiel]

'ITS A TEAM GAME'. Once outside the steering wheel underhive, as you achieve your correct Elo score, your individual prowess has less and less ability to effect a matches overall outcome. And W/L is largely decided by team mech composition and team tactics working together.

Edited by Ghogiel, 27 February 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

aptest, on 27 February 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

[/size]

The two are not distinct. Your choice of builds/mechs have a direct influence over your ability to beat other players and affect the game's outcome. Elo measures the sum of your decisions over the game's outcome, including the interaction between you'r choice of mech and build and the game's result.

Then it is giving more credit than I am due.

[JadePanther]

Tennex, on 26 February 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

The good builds in this game shouldn't be called cheese. cheese has a good chance to fail.

The builds used are optimized. sure its cheap, but its also guaranteed to win. unlike cheese.


Min/Max is a part of any competitive game.

They arent called cheese cause they suck... They are called cause they are just too cheesey and overpowerd.. They are also too often called this because they are super easy mode killing machines ( raven 3L huh, lock and pop repeat til dead enemy).

the only skill in driving a splatapult is really managing to sneak in close to an enemy (usualy from the rear) and if u get a rear armor shot U can pretty much one shot most mechs out there, if not they are dead on the next salvo. and its kinda hard to miss with a 6x6srm spread..

PPC heavy stalkers carry soo much one shot firepower they dont need to worry about hitting 5 or more salvos.. They just gotta make 1 or 2 alphas count. And with all the armor they have this gives them tons of time in the world to take thier time and aim those one or 2 shots they need.

LRM stalkers are even worse for cheese cause they can lauch enough lrms to single salvo alot of mechs out there. Lock pop dead.. sooo simple even a caveman can do it. no spotter or theres ecm.. no worrys theres tag. if something manages to get close they still have sooo much weaponry / armor they can fend off an attacker, so they dont even have to fall prey to min/max weakness.

do i really have to go on about the others..

Or since u dont like the cheese word.. how bout we call them all Chesters.. after good ol Chester Cheetah who goes around sayin it aint easy bein cheesy.. And yes i know theres another slang for that name too, not gonna bring that up here.

[EgoSlayer]

Franchi, on 26 February 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

Previous matchmaking limited this to a certain extent because if you play a medium the enemy team got a medium, still didn't balance 3L's versus 1d's or Catapults versus dragons, but you knew that whatever weight class you brought the enemy team was going to have one.

Weight/class mismatches happened in the old match maker too, just not as often.

The class imbalance now happens because of the time to make a match since now there is more criteria to create a match, not solely because of Elo. This is a function of the number of players looking for a match and should be self correcting as well with a large enough player base. If you were willing to wait 10 minutes to find a match it would work fine now. But almost nobody, myself included, want to wait 10 minutes for a match that will last maybe half that time.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghogiel, on 27 February 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

'ITS A TEAM GAME'. Once outside the steering wheel underhive, as you achieve your correct Elo score, your individual prowess has less and less ability to effect a matches overall outcome. And W/L is largely decided by team mech composition and team tactics working together.

In a game that is (if correct) Dominated by Lone Wolf PUGs? I think I understand the mass outcry against Elo. It's not the same as my friends and I, but I think i understand it now.

[Fooooo]

Your ability always has a direct impact, even if it is a "team game". (every game with more than 1v1 is a team game soooo.....)

No matter if the teams are evenly spread or not.


If im in a spider and happen to take out 3 of the enemys atlas's then them having those 3 assaults to my teams 0 assaults meant nothing at all, and my skill just pretty much turned the tide of the match.

Now thats an extreme example, but that is essentially what happens. If you don't pull your weight, you disadvantage your team.

Doesn't matter what mech you are in, just do enough and you should be fine. (ala, if you can run a crappy build and stay in the top elo range then you are a very good pilot)

[Termius]

valkyrie, on 26 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

I think figured out what the single biggest issue with ELO is. Aside from the obvious tonnage matching issue, it's the fact that for mid to high ranked players, it's now become "cheese or die."

Now, let's assume PGI gets weight balancing back in the game. Hooray! I drop in my "meh" Treb, and three others drop in usable Catapult -C1s, Hunchback -4SPs, and maybe Vass or Connor drops in a D-DC like usual. The enemy, being equally skilled, knows the ins and outs of the game, and takes a Boomcat, SRM Centbomb, and a D-DC or 6 PPC Stalker. Guess how this one is probably going to end?

I'm pretty sure it's called a Splaturion. Atleast that is what I call mine . Anyway there is a lot of cheese out there ATM, but I have adapted. The only ones I really fear are 3L's for their wonky hitboxes and 4-man Splatcats. One by themself is way easier to deal with then 4 of the freaking things. Those are the only 2 that will make me angry at this game, everything else is a minor nuisance in my book.

It really depends on what you are piloting vs the "cheese". If you drop in a "Splaturion" and there is a splatcat on the enemy team you will probably have a bad time. If I drop in my Dual ERPPC CN9-AL then I have a better chance. This build loses out to the 5 PPC stalkers though. However my Splaturion will win against the stalkers where my AL loses out. You have to pick your battles carefully, and hope your mech isn't countered by Cheese.

Edited by Termius, 27 February 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[valkyrie]

icey, on 27 February 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

its not even about cheese, its just the fact that right now there are about half a dozen 'strong' builds in the game, and if you bring anything that isnt one of those builds (say because you want to have fun and play something different), your whole team suffers.

it would not be difficult to temporarily modify your elo rating at the time of matchmaking by some number to account for how good/bad your chassis is. call it a chassis power rating or something - PGI knows how often each chassis wins or loses and how good they are relative to each other based on all their telemetry.

not to mention the obvious silliness of comparing a 0/8 basic new trebuchet to a 1/1 mastered 9A as though they were equal. (and they are, as far as your Elo can tell)

at this point, nobody knows how long it takes to adjust your Elo down by losing - it could take weeks for all we know.

in the meantime, you will be the guy everyone on your team groans at for bringing a dragon or a spider or whatever. so eventually you'll stop playing anything thats not a 3L, 9A, A1/K2, Jump 3D, PPC boat stalker or DDC. and it's stupid if the incentive system of the game encourages this.

8-man games are for 'competitive' play where everyone should bring their strongest mechs. If i want to mess around, i'll play 4-man or solo, but now you really can't. being forced to bring your A-game and your same few top tier mechs all the time is going to fatigue a lot of people pretty fast, and thats terrible for a game largely built around customising space robots.

thats the point valkyrie is making. It's pretty obvious and sensible.

At work right now so I can't make a huge post but yes, this is the exact point I'm making and the one a lot of people are actually supporting but not realizing it. What a world we live in where I can be given my exact argument back and be told "and that's why you're wrong." Instead I get accused of being a baby murdering pugstomper who deserves nothing less than to be stuck with people using steering wheels because I refuse to take a cheese build.

[Ghogiel]

Fooooo, on 27 February 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Your ability always has a direct impact, even if it is a "team game". (every game with more than 1v1 is a team game soooo.....)

No matter if the teams are evenly spread or not.


If im in a spider and happen to take out 3 of the enemys atlas's then them having those 3 assaults to my teams 0 assaults meant nothing at all, and my skill just pretty much turned the tide of the match.

The 3 mechs you killed, don't matter unless you end up winning the match. Anyone can go on to get 5 kills with 1500 damage, even with Elo, and still lose the match.
It's a TEAM GAME.

[Kraven Kor]

Unfortunately, no matter what is done, there will always be a "winning build" due to the way computer games fundamentally work: math.

If they change things and nerf this or buff that, all it does is create the cycle of players figuring out the next optimal perfect build and abusing the hell out of it.

If you play at the very highest levels in this game or any game that features any kind of customization or game-affecting options, you either use the current FOTM, or likely suffer for not doing so.

The really, truly, amazingly awesome players will still do fine in sub-optimal builds, but your average "try hard" (and I say that with love) will be running the FOTM. Period.

Embrace it, or enjoy the eventual tumor you get for stressing out about it, sadly

[Jerod Drekmor]

Mawai, on 26 February 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Honestly ... the only mechs, in my opinion, that are really overpowered are the Raven-3L ... and the Streakcat and LRM boats when ECM was not in play. Almost all the other "cheese" builds that can be very effective usually also have weaknesses that can be exploited. Usually, rushing at these mechs head on is a bad idea ... though I have seen many folks do just that.

Splat cat (short range - convergence/grouping issues of missile spread)
Dual AC20 K2 (short range, slow)
Dual Gauss K2 (slow)
6PPC Stalker (slow, overheat issues)

Also ... all of these require some skill in aiming ... which SSRMs and LRMs do not. In addition, if you are moving then you are much harder to hit with the aimed weapons ... SSRMs and LRMs do not have this issue either.

At the present time, the only thing holding SSRMs and LRMs in check is the existence of ECM. Two unbalanced weapon systems being reigned in by one unbalanced module on a limited selection of mechs.

Omg....another one saying LRMs dont need skill....mate If they would not need skill you would be dead every game by rocket salvos....and you not. If you moving tou are harder to hit by any weapon LRM are no diffrent, before thay hit you there is a warning going on your screen and if you not near cover you deserve to be hit.

[valkyrie]

Kraven Kor, on 27 February 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

Unfortunately, no matter what is done, there will always be a "winning build" due to the way computer games fundamentally work: math.

If they change things and nerf this or buff that, all it does is create the cycle of players figuring out the next optimal perfect build and abusing the hell out of it.

If you play at the very highest levels in this game or any game that features any kind of customization or game-affecting options, you either use the current FOTM, or likely suffer for not doing so.

The really, truly, amazingly awesome players will still do fine in sub-optimal builds, but your average "try hard" (and I say that with love) will be running the FOTM. Period.

Embrace it, or enjoy the eventual tumor you get for stressing out about it, sadly

Thanks for at least looking at the big picture. I'm pissed about this, obviously, but my highest concern is over the hyper competitive atmosphere ELO might encourage. Obviously, continuous tweaking is going to be necessary, but ELO is a double edges sword that could be used to curb cheese use and encourage build diversity outside of the 8 man circuit. I really think PGI does need to look at the possible implications this will have on the community and a healthy discussion that doesn't devolve into "get gud scrub" is going to go a long way towards making this enjoyable for everyone, not just highly competitive teams and solo droppers.

[Bishop Steiner]

Can't really disagree with your premise, and you hit pretty much all of my salient concerns. (Though IDK if it was for the LOLZ but I did see a lot of your KONG boys running cheesebuilds for a bit..... is the A1-SplatCat phase over with now?)

Simple fact is anything that is going to force one to run specialized min/maxxed versions of a select few chassis is bad for the game. It really left 8 man limp during phase 2. And I get the feeling we are getting "more of the same" in the Phase 3. Competitive play certainly is needed, but if it starts deciding what one can or cannot do for Community Warfare, it becomes a problem. Hopefully ELO will become a factor only used for Certain tournaments and such, and not an all covering thing that dictates everything in all facets of the game.

Ain't a lot of point having all these cool chassis and stuff available if we are forced into 3-4 narrow builds just "to be competitive".

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 February 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[RG Notch]

Sybreed, on 26 February 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Funny how the ability to customize everything made everyone use the same builds over and over again. Restricting the game to stock variants would have brought more diversity to the game than what we have now.

A shame really...

So the people who only play the "best" builds would stop playing? Or they would simply play whatever is the "best" stock variant. The funny part is people really believe that there would be more diversity with less customization. Some folks want to win all the time and will do whatever it is to do so. It's not like stock builds are all created equal.

[Jonathan Paine]

This conversation is quickly moving away from discussing the pros&cons of Elo, and towards "why does PGI allow cheese builds". This is not a bad conversation in itself, but belongs in a separate thread.

Shortly: the math powering the Elo system makes it more likely that you will win roughly 50 out of a 100 matches... once you have reached your "true" Elo level. Given that MWO is a team based game, your Elo rating is also showing your ability to coordinate and take part in a team. When you have your superduper #1 overall player with <=7 kills and a gazillion damage, and your team still lost - reflect on this: "Did I help coordinate my team? Did I offer an overall plan? Did I share my mechs strength and weaknesses? Did I ask my team mates what they brought?"

Now someone start a thread listing all the known cheesebuilds and we can discuss their pros and cons!

[deforce]

ummm i have about 30 mechs in my mech bays, i rotate though nearly 20 of them. they have different playstyles, but my results are typically the same.... win.

[Kraven Kor]

valkyrie, on 27 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Thanks for at least looking at the big picture. I'm pissed about this, obviously, but my highest concern is over the hyper competitive atmosphere ELO might encourage. Obviously, continuous tweaking is going to be necessary, but ELO is a double edges sword that could be used to curb cheese use and encourage build diversity outside of the 8 man circuit. I really think PGI does need to look at the possible implications this will have on the community and a healthy discussion that doesn't devolve into "get gud scrub" is going to go a long way towards making this enjoyable for everyone, not just highly competitive teams and solo droppers.

Right, but nothing they do, other than making all weapons identical but for visual SFX, will stop that never ending cycle of "what is the next cheese build?" when it comes to "competitive play."

There will always be those players crunching the numbers to build the Optimal Killing Machine for this game or any game.

[MischiefSC]

Cheese builds and premade team dropping is like doping. Once you start you'll push yourself beyond your actual skill level and have to either keep it up or fail enough that the systems expectations of your performance drop.

Here's the problem everyone is having.

If you want to win more than 50% of your games, you have to play competitively all the time and keep it up. This is to protect everyone else from serving as fodder for your entertainment so you can win a lot without having to really try.

I don't do cheese builds. Closest I get is my boomcat, 2xAC20 K2. I pug almost exclusively. My games are consistently frigging amazing and tons of fun. I win a bit more than 50% of the time. When Elo first started I was close to 70% and now it's tapered off to 55% or 60% or so and it's evening out a bit more. I play a D-DC, a K2 that I change up all the time. 4xLLs 2x MGs, 4x ERPPCs, 2xAC20, depends on my mood. I'm also maxing out Trebuchets and I'm on my 3rd variant. My games are fun in all of them.

I drop in premades rarely and when I do it's all using chat (no VOIP) so it has a hugely positive impact on my teams performance - my premades coordination is combined with the whole team. My win rate for premade drops is still close to 80%, sometimes 90%. Even after Elo.

What I never did was 'pugstomping' or running cheesebuilds. As such I am actually a bit low on my Elo, not too high.

People who are too high on their Elo are going to have some hundred or two hundred games of less than 50% to get down to a 50/50 range. When you do drop with teams or ride cheese you're going to suddenly go back to 50-60%, extending the total number of games you need to lose.

If you drop in a premade team you can play casual - you're just going to lose more. In the same way that everyone who pugged got told, repeatedly, 'it's your fault for not joining a team' I'm going to tell all the people in premades finding that they have to either play competitive every time or expect to lose.... it's your fault for not joining a competitive team.

Sorry, no real empathy on this one. I tried but I'm just not finding it. Elo making the game too tough for you? Pug or play competitive with teams or get used to losing.