133 replies to this topic

[Sayyid]

And reason number 101, for why things should have been left stock from the start.

Because FASA went through great lengths to design mechs that were flawed but yet balanced.

PGI should have never had 2X armor, or custom designs that are as configurable as a Clan Omni mech.

[Terror Teddy]

As long as you add MORE Ballistic points in places like:
-Center torso
-Arms with hand actuators
-50 tonners and less

you would most likely get people experimenting with fun insane builds with lot's of MG's just because it's fun but if one starts comparing Ballistic slots VS Beam or Missiles then Ballistic slots always come up short.

[OneEyed Jack]

Tech gets outdated. Don't dwell on it, it happens.

AC10s definitely still have a place. They have shorter range and damage than a Gauss, but higher DPS and more damage per ton of ammo and are lighter. They have shorter range and lower DPS than a UAC, but higher damage, so they're better for focusing damage. AC10s kind of fill in between the extremes.
They have a similar profile to a PPC, but with different advantages, not the least of which is their effectiveness when combined with other weapons. PPCs offer more value if they can take advantage of engine HS, but don't combine well with other energy weapons for sustained DPS.

[Terror Teddy]

OneEyed Jack, on 28 February 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

Tech gets outdated. Don't dwell on it, it happens.

I'm hoping for multiple kinds of ammunition for ballistic weapons soon.

-Incendiary [tracer effect, raise enemy heat slightly]
-Caseless [More Ammo - Chance to Jam]
-Explosive [Less damage but area effect]

[3rdworld]

Sayyid, on 28 February 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

And reason number 101, for why things should have been left stock from the start.

Because FASA went through great lengths to design mechs that were flawed but yet balanced.

PGI should have never had 2X armor, or custom designs that are as configurable as a Clan Omni mech.

I disagree.

The ac/10 is a perfect example on why we should have never cared about stock designs. You are never going to be able to balance the ACs while maintaining stock weight values.

Edited by 3rdworld, 28 February 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

MustrumRidcully, on 28 February 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

Ballistic Slots are rare on mechs. So it is common for people to try to get "the most" out of them. If you just have just one slot, that's the AC/20 or Gauss Rifle.

Terror Teddy, on 28 February 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

if one starts comparing Ballistic slots VS Beam or Missiles then Ballistic slots always come up short.

Not true. The AC10 is exactly the weapon I want in the arm of my DRG-1N. GR is too heavy to fit the parameters of the build and has lower DPS. Can't fit an AC20, but I'm not sure I would if I could do to extremely long cooldown and short range. Don't want a UAC because I already have MLs and missiles for spreading out damage; the AC is for pinpoint work. PPC can't keep up the same level of fire due to heat when combined with the lasers, and has lower DPS.

The AC10 might not be as ubiquitous as the PPC because it's not as easy to fit on lighter chassis or boat on heavier ones, but unless/until slug rounds come out for the LB-X, it's still the right gun for some builds.

[Asmosis]

I'd rather use UAC5 than ac10, can put that extra tonnage to better use and it has better DPS.

[Terror Teddy]

OneEyed Jack, on 28 February 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Not true.

I think you misunderstand.

I meant the amount of ballistic slots as compared to how many energy and missile slots there are on average on all mechs.

We have the Swayback with X9 energy points but I have never seen a full ballistic boat or a mech with MORE than 4 ballistic points.

I want to be able to mounts X12 MG's just BECAUSE and not because it would in any way be good.

[3rdworld]

OneEyed Jack, on 28 February 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

Not true. The AC10 is exactly the weapon I want in the arm of my DRG-1N. GR is too heavy to fit the parameters of the build and has lower DPS. Can't fit an AC20, but I'm not sure I would if I could do to extremely long cooldown and short range. Don't want a UAC because I already have MLs and missiles for spreading out damage; the AC is for pinpoint work. PPC can't keep up the same level of fire due to heat when combined with the lasers, and has lower DPS.

The AC10 might not be as ubiquitous as the PPC because it's not as easy to fit on lighter chassis or boat on heavier ones, but unless/until slug rounds come out for the LB-X, it's still the right gun for some builds.

Being the right gun for a bad build on a worse mech.

That is the definition of relevancy. /sarcasm

[Sayyid]

Terror Teddy, on 28 February 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

I'm hoping for multiple kinds of ammunition for ballistic weapons soon.

-Incendiary [tracer effect, raise enemy heat slightly]
-Caseless [More Ammo - Chance to Jam]
-Explosive [Less damage but area effect]

Nope, those are for much later and are optional ammo rules that nobody ever used.

[n00tch]

One other thing that a lot of people forget to factor in, is that almost all of the internals you can crit on in this game have a hitpoint value of 10. AC10's, due to their baseline 10 damage and fast refire rate are great in multiples if you want to crit internals.

[Roughneck45]

Jules Gonzales, on 27 February 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

AC10 goes on the ac2x2 ac10x2 dakkaphract!

That actually sounds like fun.

[Whompity]

I actually put 3ML and an AC10 in a 3M and had a lot of fun with it. I dunno if I'm just crappy with energy weapons, but it was much more gratifying than the PPC build, though the latter was a lot faster. (320xl vs 275xl) The crits and component destruction with the AC just seemed more consistent. Yeah, it was a bit slow for a 40 tonner, but it was still fast enough, most times. Why did I use the AC10? Because the 20 wouldn't fit...

Edited by Olivia Maybach, 28 February 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[Mavairo]

Spinning Burr, on 27 February 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Let's compare AC10 to PPC and to ERPPC. I challenge anyone to list a single reason why they would mount an AC10 over a PPC or ERPPC if they have the option of picking one at the same hardpoint location. The PPCs are 7 tons vs 12 tons. Unlimited ammo vs needing at least 1-2 tons ammo that can explode your entire section housing it. Both do identical 10 points "ballistic" damage immediately to a targeted location. The PPCs now have an anti-ECM benefit to a successful hit in addition to 10 points damage. The projectile speed feels about twice as fast. AC10 slug is still like firing an AC20 shell. Recycle time of 2 secs vs 3 secs. Heat generation on AC10 is NOT negligible and not that much less than basic PPC after last heavy beam tweaks and patches. PPC's have superior max range to AC10. PPC shot doesn't drop at far distance, while AC10 sniping requires aiming correction for bullet speed AND bullet arc.

Let's recap:
PPC/ERPPC is half the weight (AC10 ammo included)
Same "ballistic" damage plus anti-ECM bonus per hit
"Twice" as fast projectile speed with no projectile arc
No ammo explosion liability
50% faster recycle time for roughly 50% more heat from PPC and 100% more heat from ERPPC
20% more range from PPC and 80% more range from ERPPC in exchange for heat

Now why would you mount an AC10 on a mech? It looks like an automatic liability. If you can't mount a beam and need or want to mount ballistics, that's fine. But why AC10?

For one the Ballistics of the AC10 are still better than the PPC due to firing delay. For another, the AC10 produces less heat , and for a third it has 0 minimum range (Most important) even as a Dragon Pilot moving at 90 kph minimum there are large numbers of time, particularly during capping, or against light mechs where someone will come in to face hump you, or you have to stay within 90 in order to max your time on the cap point.

Heat is a big issue, particularly on heavy mechs.
Also I rack up alot more component destructions and kills on average with an AC10 than I do the PPC. Why that is, I'm not sure but there it is.

Also on mechs where you only have 2 to 4 energy slots, 1+ Ballistic it allows you to field LLs in E slots.
So yes I'll keep ''ole Big Bore'' on most of my Dragons arms.

[ArmandTulsen]

Elandyll, on 27 February 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

As someone who has been trying various things on a K2 (mostly always coming back to either Dual Gauss or Gauss + ERPPC), I have to admit that having spectated a guy in a K2 with Dual AC10 and 4xML, I have been mightily impressed by the results.

Still need to test it out sometime though.

I'd like to think this was me, but that'd just be my ego.

[PoLaR]

Has anyone tried using the LBX since the buff?

I used to use a pretty good setup with the LBX and actually used to do decent damage with it. I'd like to try It out again but with all these big maps coming, I'd rather keep medium/long rage builds...

[Braggart]

hmmm 14 tons for 1 weapon and ammo that deals 10 damage, or 2 weapons for 14 tons that deals 20 damage total. I know what i'm going to pick.

Ballistics do not go well with 60 ton or lighter mechs. That take up to much space, and weight for the damage. The heavier mechs can benefit greatly from swapping some energy for a ballistic to lower their overall heat levels.

Do i think they are balanced? Nope, all ACs but the 2 need increased speed to the ac2 level.

[Mavairo]

And with those 2 weapons comes the necessity for alot more heat sinks. Not just a few more, but a large # more.
And unless you're going to go ER, Face hugging becomes a big issue

And if you go ER then it won't matter how many Heat sinks you have on, on a 60 or less tonner. Because you'll be over heating so often that the 2 ERs will likely be the only weapons in your entire arsenal unless you want to cook off.

This is all that really needs to be said
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a8cdcf3f86fe058 AC10

vs
2 PPCs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d973480fe42f891

There's a pretty substantial difference between them don't you think?

Edited by Mavairo, 28 February 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[Darwins Dog]

If it's a choice between one or the other, I will take the PPC every time. Some mechs don't have the choice (Centurions mainly).

[Terror Teddy]

Braggart, on 28 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

hmmm 14 tons for 1 weapon and ammo that deals 10 damage, or 2 weapons for 14 tons that deals 20 damage total. I know what i'm going to pick.

Ballistics do not go well with 60 ton or lighter mechs. That take up to much space, and weight for the damage. The heavier mechs can benefit greatly from swapping some energy for a ballistic to lower their overall heat levels.

Do i think they are balanced? Nope, all ACs but the 2 need increased speed to the ac2 level.

Twice damage but 7,33 times more heat for the same weight ratio.
22 heat for twin ERPPC and 3 for AC10.
They are VERY different so that comparison hardly matters.

Not to mention 600K for 1 AC10 or 1,2 million for 2 ERPPC.