44 replies to this topic

[Palutena]

What mechs is the XL engine really worth the decreased survivability other then lights?

Lights the XL engine lets you go 120+ kph making you able to scout and hard to hit so give you a big boon. Lights aren't all that survivable to begin with so the XL doesn't hurt survival that much.

Assaults like the Atlas and Stalker I find myself losing a side torso quite often so the XL is a huge liability here.

Even heavys like Ilya I find myself dying to side torso blown out with the stock 280 XL engine. The XL engine makes the 3 Ultra AC5 + 3 medium laser build viable as the alternative is to go slow like 51 kph with a standard 225 without the full 10 in engine heatsinks. This might actually be worth it but you do die often to side toro blown out. Was trying a Cataphract 3D sniper and it does to side torso shot out pretty often too. Catapult might be a prime candidate as it gets headshot and cored more often so having an XL seems fine.

Mediums XL doesn't seem worth it other then the Cicada. The hunchback gets its hunch shot out often. Centurions you want to be able to zombie with your CT weapons to live longer so XL seems counter productive to that. Cicada the XL might be worth the risk as 40 tons is a bit less then 50 and it lets you mount more weapons like a 2 ER PPC build or LB10X + 4 medium lasers along with your ECM which sounds good if your going to hang out with your teammates and give ECM cover.

[Stringburka]

Cicadas, of course. but other than that it depends a LOT on the build. Basically, there's three primary defenses:
1. Being able to take damage. Armor rating, not having XL, AMS.
2. Being fast enough to stop them from hitting you. Regular dodging as well as quickly maneuvering behind stalkers.
3. Positioning yourself far out of harms way. This is different from 2 in that it is more reliant on weapon output than speed - LRM boats, for example, aren't known for being quick yet are still often quite long-lived if they position carefully.

Now, taking an XL reduces 1 but gives more weight that can be invested in 2 or 3. Basically, if your main defense is running around, you get as large an engine as you can, and if your main defense is staying away, you get as light of an engine as you can and load up on PPC's, gausses and LRM.

Thus, for LRM boats, snipers etc it's often worth it, but for brawlers it's not (usually) worth it. For flankers and skirmishers it depends a lot more on model and type of weaponry.

EDIT: But looking specifically at chassis, these seem extra unfit for it due to large side torsos: Hunchback, Awesome, Centurion. These seem to do quite well with it: Cicada, Catapult.

Edited by Stringburka, 25 February 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[John MatriX82]

Easiest mech to mount a XL engine is the Catapult, followed by the Dragon. Other mechs are all the lights and/or the Cicada.

If you consider to mount one in any other mech this usually means suicide, unless you don't take the advantage of speed or you plan to stay outside of the action.. and this imho can be taken into account for high engine-rated CN9-Ds (and YLW too), Trebuchets and AWS-9M.. employing huge xl engines of course.


Later on also the other cents (I mean those besides YLW and D) got their limit up to 275 engine rating.. I was wondering if it may be worth to xl them to this limit or wander in the usual 250/260 std engine range.

Edited by John MatriX82, 25 February 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Stickjock]

Personally, to me it's a gamble... added speed/manueverability with the extra chance of being taken out from a RT/LT shot... personal preference really if you want to use them or not. Personally, love XL's in my Awesomes... actually in most
of my Mechs if I can swing it...

Then again, been a while since I've hit the Drop-ship and rolled in them but still...

[Skribs]

IMHO, if you lose a torso you're pretty much gone anyway. I'll take the extra speed, weapons, and/or armor 95% of the time.

[PhoenixFire55]

If you ask me I see much difference in terms of survivability between Standart and XL engies. Standart engine means slower, easier to hit target, but you need to kill CT which has more armor then RT/LT. XL engine means faster, harder to hit target, but you need less damage to put it down. My rule of thumb for non-light mechs ... ranged direct/indirect fire support ... XL engine, close range brawler ... Standart engine. For light mechs it is always XL engine because only real defense light mech has is speed.

[Lynx7725]

It generally depends on what you want the Mech to do. For lights/ Mediums, do you want them to have exceptional speed? The default Centurion 9D has a 300XL; this allows it to pace a basic Commando, a design half its weight. I've personally done this and probably annoyed the heck out of the pilot the way I kept slapping at its heels with SRMs and AC fire. OTOH, my other Centurions (including a YLW) make do with a 250 std engine, mainly for survivability -- Centurion profiles are too big to avoid damage and the torso are easily penetrated.

For heavies and assaults, usually the key reason is to have more weapons. Is having that firepower the point of your mech? There are designs that really benefits from XL engines; Dragons sort of need it to be able to maintain reasonable speed and firepower. SplatCats can use the extra horsepower to close faster. It boils down to design priorities -- what do you want it to do?

[Huggyc]

This is way more a question of how good a player are you. I don't drive a mech without an XL engine. My best mech the cent-A has no arm weapons and i use those arms as shields all the time. Very rarely have I ended a match with arms. My D-DC atlas has a 360 XL engine in it and TBH those extra heatsiinks make that a pwer house that can sustain fire for quite a long time with out over heating. I brawl with almost every mech i have and XL are worth it for the firepower, in a brawl the biggest gun wins out way more than the most armor.

[ICEFANG13]

You also need to consider the side torsos sizes. Mechs like the Jenner and Dragon have huge centers and very small sides, so usually people go for the center anyway because of how approachable it is.

[Jez]

My rule of thumb is that any mech that can get to 85 kph or greater, an XL engine is a viable option. Once you get to those speeds you have enough maneuverability you can get in and out of cover between your opponents reload cycles.

[slayerkdm]

Skribs, on 25 February 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

IMHO, if you lose a torso you're pretty much gone anyway. I'll take the extra speed, weapons, and/or armor 95% of the time.

Im starting to fall into this thinking more and more. After this weekends tournement, I started to believe, being around with one medium laser in my head on the HBK G for instance, is just not any good in the present enviroment. On HBK's I think the SP may be an exception to the rule, as you can build it pretty solid with a Standard, but Im starting to believe any other HBK might as well optimize speed and fire power with XL's and be more effective at full strength, than more survivable but less effective at the beggining, where it more often counts.

[Adridos]

Catapult, Dragon and any mech you want to make into an LRM boat (for instance a Trebuchet is a good candidate, but if you want to close in with it, XL is a no no).

[toxx1790]

I run with an XL engine in almost everything except my Hunchback and my Atlas.

I agree with the guys above: the extra speed, armor and firepower are almost always worth it

[Havyek]

XL engines depend a lot on 2 things:
What you're driving
What you want to do with it


Hunchbacks aren't very good candidates for XL engines as their CTs are very small compared to their RT/LT, meaning that the side torsos generally are the first things to get blown out.
Catapults in comparison have tiny side torsos are are more likely to be killed by being cored or even head shot.

I run XL engines in my Stalker as the case can also be made that they have huge CTs compared to LT/RT, however their arms don't cover their side torsos like a Catapult does, so from the sides they can be taken out pretty quickly and easily.

[Stingz]

BDU Havoc, on 25 February 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I run XL engines in my Stalker as the case can also be made that they have huge CTs compared to LT/RT, however their arms don't cover their side torsos like a Catapult does, so from the sides they can be taken out pretty quickly and easily.

The Stalker has a thin CT, and giant side torsos (get shot even when not trying), horrible choice for XL engines.(I do enjoy the free kill though)

[Miaku]

The only two mechs I've had enough experience with to comment on are the Cent and the Drg, but I find that speed, in most situations, equates to survivability. If I turn a corner and run into a group of atlases, there is no way that being able to survive without my side torso's will help me stay alive. Especially if I run to my next cover point at 50 km/h, pretty much just food at that point.

This on top of the tonnage you save with an XL engine, I think that it is backwards to believe that you'd have more loadout with a standard engine. Maybe you might have the slots, but the tonnage is what will get you.

[One Medic Army]

The only mechs I run a Std in are my Atlas and my Centurions.
Everything else is an XL, and though I occasionally die to the loss of a side torso it's quite rare and my CT is almost always deep red by that point.
The exception being hit by streaks in my Jenners, since they seem to love my side torsos more than anything else.

Oh, my hunchbacks run Std engines, but I haven't touched those in a loooooooooooong time.

Edited by One Medic Army, 25 February 2013 - 08:46 PM.

[GT Hawk]

Dragons. I am not a big XL guy at all. Prefer standards in anything but ligths. But the dragon I do have a XL in because no one hits the side torsos' The nose is huge, so majority of shots hit the CT or arms. Don't get me wrong, people do hit the side torso's but find overall the dragon CT gets cored before a side torso dose.

[slayerkdm]

I agree that the Hunchs are easy to blow out the side torso, the other side of the coin is that if they lose that right hunch, they are crippled except for the SP really. Cents zombie well, but Hunchs don't, as the best you can have is 1MPLAS.

So you can run standard (I certainly have) but if you do, and lose the right side, and probably shortly after the left, you have a pretty weak mech running around. You may be better off just having more firepower or better heat management from the get go.

[Capt Jester]

Plenty of games in with my CPLT-A1 splatcat running an XL300 and I have never died from having a side torso blown off. The CT hitbox is just so big that's what gets hit. Hell, my cockpit gets hit more than my side torsos.

I think it's fair to say the Catapult is definitely worth it. If you're running a K2 where ammo can be a concern or heat if you're boating PPCs, or boating LRMs in a C1, A1, or C4, the extra tonnage can mean a lot more ammo.