23 replies to this topic

[willrnlds]

Another patch with no news.

I haven't seen this said before, but... MW:O uses Cryengine. Cryengine only supports Xinput. XInput only supports 'next-generation' controllers. This limits it to controllers for the Xbox 360 that also have Windows drivers. What does that mean for normal joysticks, rudder pedals, trackir, etc?

Maybe support for USB peripherals should have been higher on the priority list for choosing a game engine? I feel super bad for all the founders talking up joystick support and their enthusiasm if you search for all the threads from last summer on this topic.

I just wish someone in the know would give an actual honest update about how much effort has gone into fixing it, what the challenges are, how those challenges are being met, and what current expectations are, because all we have right now is bitching, whining and speculation. There are 8 month old posts where founders are talking about how it will be the first thing fixed in closed beta, and there hasn't been any updates or visible progress since.

In an effort to be at least somewhat constructive maybe this is a good opportunity for your people to partner with the CryEngine people and improve the engine's native support for peripherals rather than to just hack around it?

[evilC]

In general, MWO recognises standard HID controllers.
However, there seem to be exceptions and general quirkiness going on.

Luckily, there is another way.
If your controller is not recognised by the game, you can use vJoy to create a virtual joystick, and have your real joystick (Which is not recognised by the game) control the virtual joystick (which is).

See my thread here for info on getting vJoy / GlovePIE working with MWO.

At some point I plan to put up a guide for using this technique with Joystick as the input - I was even considering writing a tool to remap any of your joysticks to the virtual one - stay tuned...

Edited by evilC, 17 January 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[evilC]

Try this, does your stick work with that?

[willrnlds]

Yeah, they've hacked in some crappy level of "almost works if you hand edit config files". But even editting those values does'nt let you soften mid-stick response while preserving full throw range. (expo) Nor does it fix steering. Nor is there any support for look controls. (let alone the 6 degrees of freedom looking like trackir would support) Nor is there ability to specify relative vs absolute axis control.

My favorite part is that when I start typing to the team or looking at the map, my mech slams to a stop and won't respond to input until I close the text window or map or whatever else. Joystick users not only have to tolerate terrible controls, they don't get to communicate with their teams or look at the map unless they like standing still mid-battle.

Is an update on progress that's more in depth than the snarky "We're hacking away at it with battleaxes" in the Dev Q&A really too much to ask?

If XInput is the problem, you could implement full support for XInput, and let your players deal with implementing a virtual XInput devices (similar to previous post's suggestion).

Edited by willrnlds, 18 January 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[evilC]

willrnlds, on 18 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

But even editting those values does'nt let you soften mid-stick response while preserving full throw range. (expo)

Yeah, but not many games have joystick curves and stuff - I am not sure that will ever happen.
It is, however, the kind of thing I had planned for UJR not just for mid-stick response etc, but also because not all throttles have detents in the middle. Being able to slip the scale around to match your detents would be nice. (I aim with a mouse, I just want to use a throttle for movement)
If you can contribute ideas on how a gui may work for such a thing, and the maths behind it, I could probably rig something up.

willrnlds, on 18 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Nor is there any support for look controls. (let alone the 6 degrees of freedom looking like trackir would support)

I cant wait for TIR support!

willrnlds, on 18 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Nor is there ability to specify relative vs absolute axis control.

At least someone gets it. Relative stick aiming is a mug's game. No matter how much I try to explain the maths of it, most people just don't seem to understand. Put in an absolute axis for aiming option, gimme a stick with a huge throw, and I may just ditch the mouse, or at least use both

willrnlds, on 18 January 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

My favorite part is that when I start typing to the team or looking at the map, my mech slams to a stop and won't respond to input until I close the text window or map or whatever else. Joystick users not only have to tolerate terrible controls, they don't get to communicate with their teams or look at the map unless they like standing still mid-battle.

Hang on? with stick movement, the speed gets set to 0 while you are in the map?
Arg, I may be able to rig some kind of fix for that - my TAG toggle macro seems to detect being in the map reliably, I could maybe get UJR to hold W when the map is open or something?

Oh, and I have an idea to simulate analogue turning.
If you strobe the axis full on/off at different frequencies, surely you would get an approximation of analogue movement?

[glycerin]

bumpin this up! This is an important topic that I would like to see addressed by Devs. Analog joystick support is something alot of players would like to see. What progress has been made if any? What's the current timeline for these changes, if any?

I would like to use my joystick in my left hand to control my throttle and my direction while my mouse does what it currently does in game (ie, controls torso and weapons, etc)

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

Nothing but the sound of crickets chirping.....been harping on this for over a year.....frustrating.

[Zenmore]

Still waiting for proper joystick support and weapons grouping in the Mechlab. It would be nice to finally play this game. But hey, they already got my money. live 'n learn I guess.

[The Kwisatz Haderach]

Please add native joystick support or at least give us more options inside of the game. My simpit is just waiting to take full advantage of what this game could offer. I have tried some workarounds but none of them really felt at home, the controls just felt weird. It bothers me that the most comfortable I can feel in this Mech Game is using M/KB.

I am not saying that playing with the joystick is hard or that mouse is instantly better, I just have a personal preference I guess, I will be waiting for better joystick support.

[Eyecon69]

Hey guys... I used Joytokey which allows you to set your joystick to work as your mouse movement... when I move my joystick a small amout the torso turns slow and when I jam it to the left the torso swings (faster) to the left... I found this helped tremendously over the stupid config files. It also helped with getting my pedals to work. I tried using virtual joystick drivers auto hot key...I dunno if I just couldn't figure them out or they were just stupid to setup. I found joytokey was pretty simple to understand.

When you move one of your axis or push a button there is a tab at the top which highlights the joystick being used, you click on the tab repeat the movement and it highlights the axis or button, you double click on it and you can set, a key press, mouse input or a macro series. I didn't need to setup extra drivers or any of that nonsense. You can adjust the mouse speed to be faster or slow, accellerate at different rates, so a quick nudge doesn't send you trailing all over. I set movements to about 50% for left and right, up and down I set lower and I left the accelleration alone.

Free program and it works in win 7 64 and doesn't need six over programs to work.

I know its silly we have to install this and that and the other get something to work that should be working out of the box, but its still in the box aka Beta. I would rather deal with the **** now than have to wait 8 years like i did for black mesa.

[Ow Chi]

I am glad to see the community is working on this in light of the silence from the devs. Does anyone have a working config for the Saitek X52?

Have tried all of the hacks and workarounds up until now and just got tired of it and settled for using the throttle+mouse :/

[assiprinz]

If at some point in time this is handled properly, I really would love to see the controls being highly customizable, with multiple approaches of joystick control taken into consideration. Example?

Some people probably would like to see jostick movement translated into impulses (e.g. i give left input, torso twists in that direction and stops when I let go of the stick), whereas others might want to have a more dynamic approach (e.g. full joystick range translates to full torso movement in that direction, torso returns to zero/aligned to legs when letting go of the stick).

This could be a killer.

[Eyecon69]

Ow Chi, on 11 February 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Does anyone have a working config for the Saitek X52?

What were you looking for? My brother picked up an X52 (non pro) the other day. I plugged it in and all the axes worked. I didn't try all the different buttons or setup different modes (for some reason the cyborg software wasn't picking up the stick) but I had all of it working. I have spent hours upon hours getting my setup working to how i like it (M$ Strategic commander, Sidewinder Precision pro, and some pedals from a Logitech Nascar Race wheel) so I didn't didn't dabble into setting up the X52 too much but I'm sure I could have remapped the axes(using joytokey) to mouse movement as I did with my main stick. I was just too lazy to want to really set everything back up.

The x52 works its just the sensitivity (or slow moving) that I noticed which is the same with any of the sticks I've used.

I've used the original M$ Precision Pro, Strategic commander, X52, Nascar Racewheel(Pedals), Gamestop Racewheel (pedals), PS3 game pad, Xbox Game pad, A hacked trottle from the Hori Flightstick 2, Gravis Xtreme destroyer joy, and right now I'm on the look out for a game port adapter (old midi) and an XBOX converter dongle so I can get to work on the Steel battalion controller (I don't like the idea of tearing apart the wiring)

I like the M$ Strategic commander, the M$ precision pro and pedals.

Edit: There is a guide for the X-52 a bit further down in this forum you might want to check it out. http://mwomercs.com/...o-profileguide/

Edited by Eyecon69, 11 February 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Lightfoot]

glycerin, on 28 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

bumpin this up! This is an important topic that I would like to see addressed by Devs. Analog joystick support is something alot of players would like to see. What progress has been made if any? What's the current timeline for these changes, if any?

I would like to use my joystick in my left hand to control my throttle and my direction while my mouse does what it currently does in game (ie, controls torso and weapons, etc)

You can do that. I tried it for awhile, but went back to normal joystick. I think I cleared the Y axis=pitch by putting the X-axis there, which bumps the Y-axis out, then just restore the X-Axis to turning, leaving the Y-axis=pitch blank. Then you just use your joystick profiler to replace the Yaxis with W and S. ta-da!

[willrnlds]

Lightfoot, on 17 February 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

glycerin, on 28 January 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

bumpin this up! This is an important topic that I would like to see addressed by Devs. Analog joystick support is something alot of players would like to see. What progress has been made if any? What's the current timeline for these changes, if any?

I would like to use my joystick in my left hand to control my throttle and my direction while my mouse does what it currently does in game (ie, controls torso and weapons, etc)

You can do that. I tried it for awhile, but went back to normal joystick. I think I cleared the Y axis=pitch by putting the X-axis there, which bumps the Y-axis out, then just restore the X-Axis to turning, leaving the Y-axis=pitch blank. Then you just use your joystick profiler to replace the Yaxis with W and S. ta-da!

Glycerin, Thank you, it does need to be bumped.

Lightfoot, No, you cannot do that. Tell me how you use an analog axis to provide analog turning. The method you described turns an analog axis into a digital one.

[MADTIGERSr]

Zenmore, on 31 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Still waiting for proper joystick support and weapons grouping in the Mechlab. It would be nice to finally play this game. But hey, they already got my money. live 'n learn I guess.

my feelings exactly

[Kaladryn]

I really think the developers are underestimating how important this is if they want to build on the success of the original mechwarrior series. I have played all the mechwarrior games, and joystick control is part of what made them special. Nothing beats the feel of piloting a mech with a nice flight sim like setup. There are a lot of quality joysticks out there for cheap prices, players who don't have them would buy them. Mechwarrior as a standard FPS style control just doesn't interest the traditional mechwarrior crowd.

Look at the success of MW4 and the things like Vengeance League, all those guys used joysticks because analog control joystick made you BETTER. This is the key, it has to be that using a joystick gives you superior control, unless they do that, the game just won't interest the oldtimer hardcore mechwarrior fans. You might think that doesn't make up much of your playerbase, but we are the ones who would play the hell out of your game for years, without it, where will MWO be in a year or two?

I miss MW4 feel and control.

[Specter76]

Cannot agree more with the sentiment on this thread. I also use a left hand stick and right hand mouse. The problem that I run into is controlling the throttle. If that could be mapped to the mouse wheel I would be set.

[Loc Nar]

I see I am a little late to this party, but I think I have as close to variable turning as we will see until PGI implements actual analog turning. I posted about it here in hardware, as a precursor to my upcoming post expanding on the subject. Currently this workaround is only compatible with Thrustmaster T16000, Cougar, or Warthog based controls, but I've already shared the timing rates that yield actual variance (read the post for details...).

Quote

Nor is there ability to specify relative vs absolute axis control.

At least someone gets it. Relative stick aiming is a mug's game. No matter how much I try to explain the maths of it, most people just don't seem to understand. Put in an absolute axis for aiming option, gimme a stick with a huge throw, and I may just ditch the mouse, or at least use both

For goodness sake evil if you really want to use a stick with absolute inputs all you have to do is get a Thrustmaster T16000 ($40 on amazon) and it's done. This is truly a non issue for this stick, as well as the Cougar or Warthog. Several scripts for them were written long ago and continue to evolve and they not only work, they they work well. Lack of absolute inputs on PGI's end is not the problem here. The problem is much more fundamental and unfortunately much harder to get around.

For anyone who hasn't seen my own setup, I fabricated my own stick to use with MWO (and any other game with tank-like movement) which moves in pitch/azimuth (just like the mech moves) with no spring centering or deadzones and only use absolute inputs of course. It works like an 'absolute' champ and it's truly a lot of fun to use. I

For a little background, I'm a mechanical engineering student, a pilot IRL and a simdork in general. I put a lot of emphasis into proper, believable controls since I feel this is truly the most important aspect of any simulator, and through my experiences of comparing RL flying with simming have drawn many conclusions about what aspects are key for immersion and what amounts to fluff. Proper feeling/moving/responding controls is #1 on the list, and it's a shame that nothing is available to anyone who can't do mild fabrication work or afford to pay someone else to do it for them. My initial prototype gimble only used a drill press and a miter saw along with regular hand tools to fab, mostly out of scrap. Refinements since then have mostly been for cosmetic reasons, but it's a lot nicer than the last posts I have made on it...

Unfortunately you can't just buy a stick that moves like this, cause it's the actual missing piece of the puzzle for using a stick with MWO. If mechs were real, this is how it's stick would actually move and feel. It's an anomaly though, and highlights the reason why 99.99% of all sticks will be at a disadvantage compared to a mouse, which again has nothing to do with PGI and whether or not they offer absolute inputs as an option (see above listed sticks for fully functioning native workaround) today.

The real problem comes from using an airplane stick that moves in pitch/roll with spring centering. Using awful relative inputs only enhances the awkwardness, and merely using absolute inputs instead unfortunately does not solve it. Until there are some form of off-the-shelf sticks that move in pitch/azimuth with no spring centering capable of absolute inputs and no deadzone, sticks will remain a sub-optimal means of control. In short, using absolute inputs with an off-shelf stick sucks only a tiny bit less than using it with relative inputs. The problem is the airplane stick.

For anyone crafty on a budget that really wants to see what a stick can be like with MWO, get a T16000 and cobble together a new gimbal. Scripts to run it are already waiting for you. Obviously the same applies to a Cougar or Warthog, but those are not budget items, although a Cougar with a fried gimbal is a reasonable starting point. The solid metal construction feels delightful and IMO is well worth the effort. /rant off

[Groundstain]

It seems to me that they are just taking commands from the money hoarders who are really in charge. The system works fine for the people who are the mouse twitch players, so why place resources on fixing an item for the lesser player who is in it for the experience not just the kills. I wish I was wrong but everything points to this as more resources seem to be going to billable items.
Don't get me wrong I believe in a free market system. I just wish someone would just come clean and say something about sticks and/or not be cryptic about it.