26 replies to this topic

[Wip3ou7]

Obviously a lot of players feel that Raven-3L and Commando-2D are overpowered... ECM basically doesn't do a damn thing for me as a CDA-3M pilot - it has no offensive value since I have no missle hardpoints, and it has no defensive value since an enemy raven can just switch to Counter to obtain a lock on me (and at that point, there's nothing I can do to prevent incoming missles other than trying to run away from a mech that is faster than me - which isn't gonna happen - I have to stop and fight.)
A mech who's ECM is in Counter-Mode should not be able to obtain missle lock on his own. Currently there is just no way to counter a mech carrying ECM+SSRMs in 1v1. You NEED teammates with their own ECM to oversaturate the Counter-Jam, or you need teammates with SSRMs to make the kill when the enemy ECM switches to counter AND there is no backup ECM to disrupt lock. ECM+SSRM mechs would have to make the choice of being the jammer, or being the firepower - not both simultaneously.
To be effective offensively with Missiles you need only 1 single ECM... but to be defensive effectively against missiles you need TWO OR MORE ECM. That's not fair. I believe that is the basic design flaw of the way ECM currently operates. There should be some teamwork involved in being offensive with ECM.

Here is a solution...

-If you are operating an ECM in Counter-Mode, you should not be able to obtain a missile lock on an enemy target within 180m. Any friendly mech standing within 180m of you would also have his missile guidance systems jammed vs any target who is also within 180m of you.

Basically, no locks can happen inside of a Friendly Counter-ECM bubble. This would mean that only someone standing outside of the friendly ECM bubble which is jamming could obtain missile lock on the jammed target. LRMs can still lock on to someone who is being jammed by a friendly ECM scout, and friendly mechs using SSRMs can still obain lock on the jammed target as long as they are not within range of the friendly Counter-ECM signal. If your scout runs into a pack of cloaked units, or if two light mechs are brawling toe to toe, both have ECM, and your friendly goes Counter-Mode and you are carrying SSRMs, you would be able to lock and fire on the enemy mech being jammed by your buddy from 180m-270m away from the brawl. LRMs would operate normally.

Thoughts?

Edited by Wip3ou7, 25 February 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Asmosis]

all these problems have less to do with ECM or SSRMs and most to do with light mechs (in general) being difficult to hit due to netcode issues in the first place.

Once thats been sorted none of this will be a problem (heres hoping).

[Wip3ou7]

No... you seem to have missed the point. This post is not about hitboxes. It's about ECM and Streaks. You're saying it's fine as it is? Are you a raven pilot?

Edited by Wip3ou7, 25 February 2013 - 06:41 PM.

[EmeraldSongbird]

I've always found it weird that SSRMs were released now and PGI is not even close to begin talking about developing clan mechs or weapons.

[OneEyed Jack]

The idea that any fighting unit would ever use ECM that blocked their own electronics is totally absurd. Shall we also have it shut off friendly IFF, block targeting enemies outside 200m and disrupt tracking of friendly units? Oh, oh! Then, if the enemy uses ECCM mode, it would turn your missiles back on! Yay!

[Wip3ou7]

Well, that's the trade off. It should be a defensive device primarily, not an offensive one.

[Nostram]

Sooo... ECM counter involves pseudo ECM'ing your teammates, that makes perfect sense.... to someone... somewhere. I do not think many people here will agree with that being a good idea.

[Uzi Foo]

Best way to counter ecm ravens is to learn to aim. We used to have dueling training before elo made it hard to sync drop. About half my duels were agains ravens, lost 1 in 6. Mechs I used were, 4P (one loss one win), DDC, 4SP, Commando 2D, Centurion A.

Half the duels wew before the lag shield fix.

I hope ravens stay the way they are, easy kills sice they think that they are unkillable and tend to do dumb things.

Edited by Uzi Foo, 26 February 2013 - 07:35 AM.

[MourningZero]

How about any mech using Disrupt mode is still lockable under 180m, but his shielded friends aren't. Nerd-rationalize it as the source of the jamming is easy to home in on, but the effects of the jamming are still effective. Now everyone can pack streaks to counter light ECM mechs who run into the enemy formation unassisted.

ECM stays a team-play system, keeps all of its sneaky covert ops effects and LRM busting abilities, but a light platform carrying it can be more easily countered by another weapon system.

[Rofl]

Uzi Foo, on 26 February 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Best way to counter ecm ravens is to learn to aim. We used to have dueling training before elo made it hard to sync drop. About half my duels were agains ravens, lost 1 in 6. Mechs I used were, 4P (one loss one win), DDC, 4SP, Commando 2D, Centurion A.

Half the duels wew before the lag shield fix.

I hope ravens stay the way they are, easy kills sice they think that they are unkillable and tend to do dumb things.

I tried out my 3L for the first time in months yesterday - first time since netcode fixes - and I was still amazed with what I could do.

1st game: Alpine. I rushed the perimeter of the combat zone to go for cap. By the time the enemy forces were engaging our cautious team, I had started capping the base. 2 mechs came back to deal with me: a centurion (Ac/10, 2 mediums, LRM10 i believe), and a streak cat (lulz). Killed the cent without losing any full armor sections, and obviously all the cat could do was watch and then die himself. Victory by cap. They only had 1 mech left, anyway.

2nd game: top damage, top match rating, survived the entire fight by running between building getting SSRM and laser potshots at 4 other opposing mechs while a friendly rained an LRM20 on them. 4 mechs (mediums and heavies, no lights or assaults for what it matters) vs 1 3L and an LRM20 in the back, and we decimated them.

3rd game I didn't do AS well, 3 kills, didn't die, but was 3rd on my team. Only ~350 damage.

*Shrug* I certainly couldn't pull off those feats in my other ravens... which is why I sold them about 6 weeks ago.

[Kyone Akashi]

It boils down to what the devs think ECM should do. At the moment, it's not being used for stealth and reconnaisance (at least not on 2D and 3L, the most prevalent users) but for an increase in offensive capabilities by making SSRMs exclusive.

The real issue is that SSRMs, ever since the November patch, have become a wee bit too good at what they do. ECM only exacerbates the issue by largely limiting this weapon to the four chassis that are allowed to slot the Guardian-suite.

Easiest solution: Make SSRMs lock on regardless of whether there's an active ECM or not, just like in the tabletop.
A larger saturation of Streak missiles should put a quick end to the 3L's prominence.
Ultimately, Streaks need to be looked at in general. It's been three months since these two posts.

Uzi Foo, on 26 February 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Best way to counter ecm ravens is to learn to aim. We used to have dueling training before elo made it hard to sync drop. About half my duels were agains ravens, lost 1 in 6. Mechs I used were, 4P (one loss one win), DDC, 4SP, Commando 2D, Centurion A.
Half the duels wew before the lag shield fix.
I hope ravens stay the way they are, easy kills sice they think that they are unkillable and tend to do dumb things.

Have you ever tried to duel a 3L in a non-ECM Light? You should maybe give that a try before casting judgement.

I do not fear them as much as I did in my Jenner either, ever since switching to a Centurion AL last weekend either. The reason? Streaks don't wreak as much havoc on Mediums as they do on Lights, that's all.

"L2Aim" is really the most tiresome and uninformed advise one could give on this issue, completely dismissing other pilots' actual skill and accuracy as well as the inherent supriority of Post-November SSRMs in their role as the most perfest weapon for killing Lights. What use is an accuracy of, say, 90% with your lasers when the opponent has a weapon that will hit you 100% of the time and does not cause nearly as much heat? And on top of that, he can launch them from a 90° angle whereas you need to face him. And then there's the effect of AoE missile damage on small components, resulting in small Mechs' having their entire torso region damaged rather than just one location.

Go get a Jenner and see how well you fare against an average to good 3L pilot. Just as an experiment.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 26 February 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Merc85]

The easiest and simplest solution is too not allow any mech to mount both ECM and streaks.

[Kyone Akashi]

That'd be a solution, too.

Merely disabling hard locks when the pilot runs the Guardian-suite in Disrupt will only result in people switching back and forth - keeping Disrupt on long enough to still prevent others from targeting them, but dropping it just long enough to launch their own missles.

Apparently, this is what they do already when an ECM-Light encounters another ECM-Light.

[Merky Merc]

Allow my mech to equip HARMs, the super duper lostech, and ECM problems will cease.

But only for me

[Elessar]

IMHO it doesn´t go far enough:

IMHO the ECM suite should be Tri State:
-Disrupt
-Counter
-Off

In Disrupt or Counter Mode the ECM carrying Mech (and all mechs in vicinity of 180m) cannot use any SSRMs.
To obtain a Lockon the ECM has to be switched off (and has to stay switched off, till the SSRMs have hit their targets).

This might also counter the trend to Streak-ECM-Ravens (or other light Mechs) (and might "persuade" them, to more use SRMs instead of SSRMs, as the Mech would have to give up his "ECM cover" in order to fire the missiles

Edited by Elessar, 26 February 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[Wip3ou7]

There is nothing unfair about not being able to lock on a target within 180m of a friendly disrupt. Think about it. This is a team game, if you are disrupting you should need teammates to lock on. Even if they had to be 180-270m away for you to personally lock.

Edited by Wip3ou7, 28 February 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Zeus X]

I don't understand why some of you guys have issues hitting 3L's, 2D's or anything light really. I've not had any issues killing them at all, and neither has my clan mates.

Yes I do understand the swarm tactic, but usually that's done when someone is caught alone, not when your grouped up.

In my opinion nothing is wrong with SSRM's or ECM, these mechs drop just as quick as any other mech.

[DocBach]

I've made tons of suggestions about electronic warfare before, that usually read out like essays, so here's one that's not as long:

Buffing Beagle Active Probe to where it can see anything in a radius around it, including 'Mechs behind mountains or buildings normal sensor cannot see;

moving any sort of missile defeat from ECM to a third Ghost target mode, which is countered by Beagle Active Probe.

ECM hides enemy movement from Beagle; Beagle denies ECM's disruption of missile locks.

That way we get 1.5 ton pieces of equipment that can work to have an advantage over each other, and defeat each other depending on player use.

Counter ECM mode counters both disrupt, or ghost target mode.

If PPC's jam out ECM, PPC's also jam out Beagle.

I also believe the complete information denial over entire grid squares is too much, and allowing targets in sensor range to be targeted, but not identified would go a long ways to qualm complaints about ECM; ECM's third mode would still provide protection against missiles, but also be counter-able by a similarly expensive 1.5 ton piece of equipment, instead of a 7 ton PPC.

[Taemien]

There's a better fix, while under the disruption of ECM, you need to target the mech (not the box) to obtain a lock. Basically make missiles lockon like they do in MWLL when under ECM effects:

http://www.youtube.c...ayoBfyRw#t=158s

[Mystere]

Wip3ou7, on 25 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Currently there is just no way to counter a mech carrying ECM+SSRMs in 1v1 ...

A pair of Mark 1 eyeballs used properly should be counter enough. And that has even been made easier with recent changes to PPCs and TAG.