198 replies to this topic

[Vapor Trail]

Looking at pure damage output per ton, per shot:
(Assuming 1 ton of ammo. 1 heat sink, or 2 heat sinks in the case of an energy weapon.)

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LRM20 has 3 damage per ton, per shot

AC/20 has 1.25 damage per ton, per shot.

Gauss Rifle has .88 damage per ton, per shot.

PPC has 1.11 damage per ton, per shot.

SRM 6 has 3 damage per ton per shot.

---

This is misleading because of the differing heat generation per shot of the weapons.
PPC generates 8 x the heat of the Gauss, and thus cannot fire as fast, for as long.

If we assume enough heat sinks to keep the various weapons cool (nearly heat neutral) and one ton of ammo, it begins to look like this:

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LRM20 has 1.56 damage per ton, per shot. (needs 12 heat sinks)

AC/20 has 0.67 damage per ton, per shot. (needs 15 heat sinks)

Gauss Rifle has 0.83 damage per ton, per shot.(needs 2 heat sinks)

PPC has 0.30 damage per ton, per shot. (needs 26 heat sinks)

SRM 6 has 1.15 damage per ton per shot. (needs 10 heat sinks)

---

You can back off on the heat sink counts, to improve the damage to weight ratio at the expense of having to cool off now and then, but ton for ton, the SRM6 is pretty dang potent to start with, and gets better quicker than most other weapons as you back off on the heat sinks.

Also consider that you get 16 shots of SRM6 out of a ton of ammo (100 missiles per ton). Of the rest of the weapons mentioned (excluding the PPC) nothing comes within 30% of that Shot/Ton count (LRM20 at 9, Gauss at 10, AC/20 at 7), so the ammo is much denser in damage per ton terms. Which means you can carry relatively less ammo to do the same job, which means the damage per ton for the SRM6 gets better as you increase the ammo count.

Remember though, this is pure damage output. What you can actually put on target with SRMs and LRMs has quite a few variables. But for within 90m, the SRM6 is incredibly powerful for it's weight (and this is what makes the A1 Splatcat so fricking annoying... and popular).

Edited by Vapor Trail, 01 March 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[Grizley]

Vocis, on 01 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

"Firepower" is a meaningless metric.

Agreed.

Any Atlas that has been dropped in 3 seconds by a mech with under 15 firepower of UACs has learned this the hard way...

[Royalewithcheese]

Vocis, on 01 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Who said the LRM boat is in the open area?

It is called "teamwork" you might not have seen it, but some people do use it.

Wait, so our hypothetical lurmboat is using cover now? Well, at least this means our hypothetical lurmboat pilot isn't terrible at robots,* but the LRMs are still hard-countered by the OP hills and buildings. Why? Because people can use hills and buildings to not get hit by lurms.

*although it's still rather unclear to me how you think the lurmboat is "forcing fights in the open" against opponents who are, presumably, also not terrible at robots.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Instead of firing all at once, SRMs could fire two at a time, every .25 seconds. Much like putting a SRM in a NARC tube. It also happens to be how SRMs worked in MW4 and MWLL.

Problem solved.

Apologies if someone said this already.

[Mystere]

Enough with these nerf threads already. Just learn to deal with them by practicing, practicing, and practicing. Continue this and we might all end up with nothing but Urbanmechs armed with machine guns.

But on second thought ...

Edited by Mystere, 01 March 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[Panzerjotun]

SRM's are fine. Players acting like Rambo is the problem. Play with a team, identify threats and remove them.

[PropagandaWar]

Vapor Trail, on 01 March 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Remember though, this is pure damage output. What you can actually put on target with SRMs and LRMs has quite a few variables. But for within 90m, the SRM6 is incredibly powerful for it's weight (and this is what makes the A1 Splatcat so fricking annoying... and popular).

Splat Cat aside even at 90 meters a single SRM6 does not hit one location but an AC/20, Gauss do.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 01 March 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Thontor, on 01 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Agreed, I still can't get over the fact that the OP is comparing an SRM6 with 3 medium lasers or a gauss rifle...


True, all are 15 "firepower". But missile spread makes a SRM6 nowhere near as effective as the other two.

What are you talking about, 6xSRM6 CAT-A1 is totally equivalent to a mech with six gauss rifles

[Tesunie]

I'll take on any of your SRM builds with my non SRM builds. I'll take that splatcat on with me Stalker. Too heavy for an even fight? Then I'll do it in my Dragon, Hunchback, Cicada... I won't say I'll always win, but I've fought them all and won as much as lose to them. SRMs don't scare me. They have my respect, but I'll still take them on.

A good pilot makes a mech that can fight at any range. I'll try to keep range on an SRM boat. Delay them coming in. And if they trap me or jump me, try to regain range and aim for any damaged components. If they jump me, I'm probably dead but it would probably be my own fault for not seeing the sneak.

Yes. SRMs are powerful, but they also have a huge weakness. If your effective range is their effective range and you didn't bring any weapons to fight outside that range, expect to have trouble. Though, besides machine guns and small lasers, SRMs do have the shortest range in the game. Even a med laser out ranges the SRM...

Edited by Tesunie, 01 March 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Inyc]

Royalewithcheese, on 01 March 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

What are you talking about, 6xSRM6 CAT-A1 is totally equivalent to a mech with six gauss rifles

If both are butting up to you... then yea they are. But you can't make a 6 Gauss make. You can make a 9 ML mech, and your 6 SRM cat only needs to have 1/3rd of his missiles per volley hit to get the same output.

Eldragon, on 01 March 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Instead of firing all at once, SRMs could fire two at a time, every .25 seconds. Much like putting a SRM in a NARC tube. It also happens to be how SRMs worked in MW4 and MWLL.

Problem solved.

Apologies if someone said this already.

Nice

[Mazzyplz]

when comparing the 'awesome 8T 2xsrm6' with the 'commando 2d 3xsrm4'

damage is a useless metric?
is that some kind of a joke?

they both do the same damage. an assault is not supposed to have the same damage output with the same gun, are you crazy?

maybe it's irrelevant when comparing different weapons spread vs pinpoint or burst,
NOT WITH THE SAME WEAPON!!
of course it's relevant in the missiles boating arm race, unless you're trading for artemis pretty much


when you put those srm in your awesome 8t you're limiting yourself to the same arsenal a light mech is capable of matching no problem in exactly the same manner

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Vapor Trail]

PropagandaWar, on 01 March 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

Splat Cat aside even at 90 meters a single SRM6 does not hit one location but an AC/20, Gauss do.

Yeah... but,

Assuming you hit one location with dual Gauss, or Dual AC/20 you're only doing 30 or 40 to the panel.
Assuming you hit three different locations with a Splatcat shot, you're doing an average of 30.
So you're doing the equivalent of THREE dual Gauss mech's worth of damage.
Even with a single SRM6, that's almost the equivalent of three AC/5 shots.


The only real factor is range. If you catch it in the open, at range, killing it is as simple as killing anything else. But, the profusion of cover on most current maps, and the Splatcat's speed allow it to reach it's desired range fairly easily. Beyond that, it's pilot tactical sense weather or not they get mixed up with multiple mechs. One on one, at it's desired range, the Splat cat is hugely powerful.

Is it "all-killing" and "all-powerful?" No. It can be killed.

But it's power and speed allow a decent pilot to make most fights into the original Predator movie.
"If it bleeds we can kill it." Six, highly trained special forces operatives later... kaboom. It's dead.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 01 March 2013 - 11:44 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

Vapor Trail, on 01 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Yeah... but,

Assuming you hit one location with dual Gauss, or Dual AC/20 you're only doing 30 or 40 to the panel.
Assuming you hit three different locations with a Splatcat shot, you're doing an average of 30.
So you're doing the equivalent of THREE dual Gauss mech's worth of damage.
Even with a single SRM6, that's almost the equivalent of three AC/5 shots.


The only real factor is range. If you catch it in the open, at range, killing it is as simple as killing anything else. But, the profusion of cover on most current maps, and the Splatcat's speed allow it to reach it's desired range fairly easily. Beyond that, it's pilot tactical sense weather or not they get mixed up with multiple mechs. One on one, at it's desired range, the Splat cat is hugely powerful.

Is it "all-killing" and "all-powerful?" No. It can be killed.

But it's power and speed allow a decent pilot to make most fights into the original Predator movie.
"If it bleeds we can kill it." Six, highly trained special forces operatives later... kaboom. It's dead.

I guess you didnt get the splatcat aside part. I was comparing weapons. But if you want to go there. Its easier to disable a Splat cat than a Thunder or Guass kitty any day of the week. If I have to explain why then this conversation is meaningless

[Inyc]

Mazzyplz, on 01 March 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

when comparing the 'awesome 8T 2xsrm6' with the 'commando 2d 3xsrm4'

damage is a useless metric?
is that some kind of a joke?

they both do the same damage. an assault is not supposed to have the same damage output with the same gun, are you crazy?

maybe it's irrelevant when comparing different weapons spread vs pinpoint or burst,
NOT WITH THE SAME WEAPON!!

You're forgetting that you have other weapon slots on your 8T... its not just 2 missile ports. If you use 2 SRM6 instead of 2 LRM20 you open up 6 slots and 14 tons. Enough for 2 Large Lasers. And I don't think your 8T can efficiently pack 4 LLs and 2 LRM20s... And besides, the point here is that if someone is up in your grill, your LRMs can't fire, your SRM can. The same way your SRMs can't do squat past 270 and your LRMs can. Not the same role, not the same use.

[Fate 6]

Brilig, on 28 February 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Rather than reducing the damage I would increase their spread up close, or maybe hamper their convergence a little. Single units seem pretty well balanced. Its when you have 3 SRM6 all firing out of the same tubes at the same point that the damage seems crazy.

Making the game less consistent isn't good. That's part of why LRMs in this game aren't balanced - the travel time is so damn long that they have to have lots of damage because it's hard to land volleys against people who know what cover is.

SRMs are just a little too damaging. That said, without them, lighter mechs like Cents and Jenners have a real problem being useful without them.

[Mazzyplz]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

You're forgetting that you have other weapon slots on your 8T... its not just 2 missile ports. If you use 2 SRM6 instead of 2 LRM20 you open up 6 slots and 14 tons. Enough for 2 Large Lasers. And I don't think your 8T can efficiently pack 4 LLs and 2 LRM20s... And besides, the point here is that if someone is up in your grill, your LRMs can't fire, your SRM can. The same way your SRMs can't do squat past 270 and your LRMs can. Not the same role, not the same use.

yeah except for 'in your face power' 2xsrm6 is pretty lame for an assault, but for long range LRM actually makes a nice boat on it.
not the same role but on this mech that's the way it works out.
same hardpoints - nice boat / poor brawler

if you want to consider laser hardpoints then some hunchbacks equip 2xsrm6 and several lasers, making your 8T pretty bad in comparison as well, more powerful but slightly

don't forget the developers have to take these mechs in consideration when balancing the weapons, if srm6 were worse then there would be absolutely no reason (vs scarce reason) to put srm6 on that model

people should consider what devs have on their plate and that they need to keep everyone happy before making demands

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 March 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Taemien]

To put it shortly, if SRMs were as 'good' as what everyone says, then I would use them alot more than I do now. Right now I believe Large Lasers and Medium Lasers are superior. They hit out to further ranges and cost less in tonnage and criticals.

To make SRMs effective they need ammo, which costs tons and criticals. To make sure most missiles hit, you need Artemis, which also costs more tons and criticals.

As for dealing 15 damage. Its still spread out. And even with Artemis not every missiles is always hitting. So you're really only dealing 7.5-12.5 damage each shot. So on average to a single location you're doing 5-7.5 damage per shot up to 270m. With three medium lasers you're doing far more to a single location for less tonnage and less criticals (SRM takes 4 crits, 2 for weapon, at least 1 for ammo, and 1 for Artemis). Heat isn't an issue since both sets are pretty much heat neutral on their own as long as you have an engine.

Though the reason to use SRMs is that in the same example they use 1 hardpoint vs 3 energy for the medium lasers. There's always a tradeoff and that is one of them. In addition they deal more critical damage than lasers since lasers do damage overtime. This is from a personal experience, when using SRMs against unarmored location, crap falls off in large chunks where as lasers don't seem to do that, I assume its from its damage over time effect.

Thats just paired against Medium Lasers. Large Lasers make for an interesting comparison as well. With proper aim, you're dealing 9 damage to the same component vs the 7.5 from the SRM6. In addition its a longer range (which accounts for the extra ton it has on average) makes a big difference.

If you want to see how powerful Large Lasers are. Drop in a premade of 4 with each person having a Stalker or Atlas RS with 4 Large Lasers a piece. I would be very surprised if any one of you took any considerable damage. I'd say it'd be much more effective than using 4 splatcats.

This isn't to say I don't EVER use SRMs, I use them quite a bit. But they aren't my go to weapon. As they are not that powerful or versatile enough.

Eldragon, on 01 March 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Instead of firing all at once, SRMs could fire two at a time, every .25 seconds. Much like putting a SRM in a NARC tube. It also happens to be how SRMs worked in MW4 and MWLL.

Problem solved.

Apologies if someone said this already.

You don't want me having the ability to fire them all in a stream like that. I would use SRMs quite a bit more then. The ability to deal 15 points of damage to a single location rather then the spread splat it does now?

Edited by Taemien, 01 March 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Vapor Trail, on 01 March 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Assuming you hit three different locations with a Splatcat shot, you're doing an average of 30.
So you're doing the equivalent of THREE dual Gauss mech's worth of damage.

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

If both are butting up to you... then yea they are.

If you're trying to core someone, you don't care about incidental damage to other areas of their mech. If you think raw damage matters more than precision damage: here's a little thought experiment. Think about what a 6xGauss mech could do if it shot various parts of various mechs. Is it more or less effective than 6xSRM6?

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 01 March 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Inyc]

Mazzyplz, on 01 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

if you want to consider laser hardpoints then some hunchbacks equip 2xsrm6 and several lasers, making your 8T pretty bad in comparison as well, more powerful but slightly

Look I'm not trying to compare apples with oranges here. I set the premise clearly in my OP: This is about brawlers. Brawlers don't use LRMs or PPCs. Brawlers use weapons they can use at close range while mobile against usually mobile targets.

[Mazzyplz]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Look I'm not trying to compare apples with oranges here. I set the premise clearly in my OP: This is about brawlers. Brawlers don't use LRMs or PPCs. Brawlers use weapons they can use at close range while mobile against usually mobile targets.

yeah that's cool but you have to consider the devs need to balance everything together because of the hardpoints not just tweaked for brawling

if srm6 were any worse that 8T would be unplayable to someone who wants to try srm on it to get that master for his other models because he doesn't like LRM.
it happens and if they were nerfed the damage you could deal with the 8T srm would be ridiculously bad vs just bad,
those people would be angry and complain.

designers have to balance different interests and try to keep the mechs like they are from canon at least somewhat flexible and usable with different loadouts

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 March 2013 - 12:03 PM.