198 replies to this topic

[Inyc]

Filip Orionsky, on 01 March 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

I dont think a firesupport mehcs being the king of brawlers is fine.

The Splatcat is not the issue itself, but it is the embodiment of that issue.

[Brilig]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 March 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Unless SRMs will spread out 3m from each other th emoment they leave the tubes, the simplest way to rebalance SRMs seems to be tightening the spread at all ranges and lower the damage*. This way, SRMs lose effectiveness at close range, but gain them at longer ranges, simply because all those missiles actually have a chance to hit the same mech.

*) And I don't think it will need all that much. Just lowering the damage to 2 per missile might be sufficient. If that isn't enough, maybe a slight cooldown increase for SRM4s and SRM6s.

What gets me about this is even if you lower the damage, tightening the groups will ensure that even more missiles will be hitting the same section than before.

Carrying 3 SRM6s is like having a weapon that weighs 9 tons (12tons with Artemis), but does 45 damage. At range it is spread out, but the closer you get the more damage it does to a single section.

Lowering the damage by .5 to give each SRM6 12 damage and tightening the spread doesn't seem like it would help much.

[Inyc]

KharnZor, on 01 March 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

I'm sorry but you are deluded

80 KM/H on a splat cat beats out all the assaults and heavies bar the Dragon. The Treb is faster, but the Hunchy and Cent have to give up much to break 90.

[Filip Orionsky]

Splatcat with speed tweak can go around 86 kmph, thats faster than all assult, all heavies excepting dragon and some mediums (depends on engine). Even going 100kmph vs 86 in some meidum wont give you enough speed to run out in time if a splatcat pops out from behind a corner.

Edited by Filip Orionsky, 01 March 2013 - 01:26 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

You are talking about tonnage and slot usage, and yes I stated that SRM6s are at a fine balance point for tonnage and slot usage. I never disagreed with this. I stated that they are too strong per hard point when you consider hard point availability roster wide. Any brawler mech chassis with SRM6s > any brawler mech chassis without.

I would disagree that they are fine from a tonnage point of view. If you calculate ammo and heat sink cost to sustain fire for 15 to 30 seconds, SRMs look pretty good on a damage/tonnage comparison.



See the efficiency spike once we get to the missiles? LRMs definitely will always spread significantly, so their high efficiency might at least be partially acceptable. But SRMs? They can be fired at close range, and they are fired at close range, and they beat anything else out there. Their spread only really matters at 90m or beyond (and there it gets quickly quite ridicilious so that it's range is purely theoretical.)

LB10-X AC have the same drawbacks at the seranges (also making the range of 540m purely theoretical), but they are much less efficient. Either SRMs are off or LB10 X are off. Or even both.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 March 2013 - 01:32 AM.

[Filip Orionsky]

Thing is srm and lrm damage was icnrased from tabletop value while others weapons have their damage unchanged

Edited by Filip Orionsky, 01 March 2013 - 01:29 AM.

[KharnZor]

Filip Orionsky, on 01 March 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Splatcat with speed tweak can go around 86 kmph, thats faster than all assult, all heavies excepting dragon and some mediums (depends on engine). Even going 100kmph vs 86 in some meidum wont give you enough speed to run out in time if a splatcat pops out from behind a corner.

Never had a problem in my 96kph hunch getting away from splatcats due to me rarely running in a straight line and having the ability to torso twist to spread damage.

[Inyc]

Brilig, on 01 March 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Lowering the damage by .5 to give each SRM6 12 damage and tightening the spread doesn't seem like it would help much.

I would say lowering the damage to 12 (no change to spread) is a good start. It still means you get a 36 damage for 9 slots, 12 tons that gives up range and shots-per-ton for damage. This still makes it an amazing weapon. You would still need 7 Medium lasers to equal that single shot damage. 5,4 to equal the DPS. That seems reasonable. And you could increase ammo per ton to retain the same damage potential (so 125 ammo-per-ton).

[Inyc]

Voidsinger, on 01 March 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

If you had looked at this realistically, the conclusion is the most effective weapon across all brawling ranges is the sSRM. This is proveded you can operate them in the ECM environment (and if you can sneak a Splatcat in close, you have the ECM to get Streaks going. 5 damage on a 1.5 ton launcher, with 50 shots per ton, 2 heat and only fires when guaranteed 100% accuracy.

Your premise was flawed from the start.

The issue again is the number of hard points available. In the entire game you can, at most, get 6 SSRM2s on a mech. On this same mech you can put 6 SRM6s.

You need to land 3 volleys of SSRM2s for every volley of SRM6s the other lands. The cooldown difference is 0.50 seconds. The damage per ton of ammo is the same. Heat per damage is twice as good on the SRM6s.

That the SSRM2s weight less and take up less space is a non issue when hard points is the limiting factor in the equation.

This was the entire point of the post. AC/20 doesn't have this problem because hard points are NEVER its limiting factor. You can't place 4 AC/20s in mechs with 4 Ballistic hard points. You can't do it with 4 Gauss. You can do it with PPC, but you'll do half as much damage and you get to fire once every 30 seconds.

That is why I called the post "SRM6 are too good per hardpoint" and not just "SRM6 are too good" ok?

[Craftyman]

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

I would just like to point out that in tabletop, SRMs do 2 points of damage per missile. Yet armor is only worth 16 points per ton (half of MWO).

By that, and that alone, all missiles are technically nerfed in comparison to tabletop varieties.

Plenty of brawlers out there do just fine without SRMs or with only a nominal addition of them.

Hell - I've done over 200 points of damage with 2 medium lasers in a catapult with torso-mounted lasers (it was an ECM **** fest against our team). And I'm not all that great with lasers. I'm just relatively decent at being somewhat difficult to kill. ... When I'm not doing something ********, that is.

So, I really don't have much in the way of sympathy for these crowds who like to say that SRMs are some kind of god weapon. I don't have that much of a problem with them, and other players do just fine, as well.

you forgot the part where every OTHER weapon does regular tabletop damage (except machine gun/flamer). So what reason was there for 2.5 damage? Perhaps SRMs were underperforming during CBT because of an explosion and hitbox related bug

[Brilig]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

I would say lowering the damage to 12 (no change to spread) is a good start. It still means you get a 36 damage for 9 slots, 12 tons that gives up range and shots-per-ton for damage. This still makes it an amazing weapon. You would still need 7 Medium lasers to equal that single shot damage. 5,4 to equal the DPS. That seems reasonable. And you could increase ammo per ton to retain the same damage potential (so 125 ammo-per-ton).

What worries me about lowering damage is making the SRM4, and 2 weaker as well. Especially the SRM2.

[Dreepa]

Solution:

Hardpoint Value.

Example:

Right arm (3 Missile slots):
Missile slots -> Becomes "missile capabilities" -> Right arm (30 points of missile capability)

Srm2: Cost 7 points, thus can fit 4
Srm4: Cost 8 points, thus can fit 3
Srm6: Cost 11 pts , thus can fit 2

Now balance the values to something more thought through than me just putting them up here, and problem solved.

[MustrumRidcully]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

The issue again is the number of hard points available. In the entire game you can, at most, get 6 SSRM2s on a mech. On this same mech you can put 6 SRM6s.

You need to land 3 volleys of SSRM2s for every volley of SRM6s the other lands. The cooldown difference is 0.50 seconds. The damage per ton of ammo is the same. Heat per damage is twice as good on the SRM6s.

That the SSRM2s weight less and take up less space is a non issue when hard points is the limiting factor in the equation.

This was the entire point of the post. AC/20 doesn't have this problem because hard points are NEVER its limiting factor. You can't place 4 AC/20s in mechs with 4 Ballistic hard points. You can't do it with 4 Gauss. You can do it with PPC, but you'll do half as much damage and you get to fire once every 30 seconds.

That is why I called the post "SRM6 are too good per hardpoint" and not just "SRM6 are too good" ok?

Tehere were days when SSRM2s where seen more often than SRM6s on Catapults. It was before the introduction of ECM. Considering that you are quite right - SRMs deal more damage than Streak 2s, I think that was noteworthy.

Of course, there was an additional benefit Streaks had back then - the cockpit shake and smoke they produced made countering a Streak barrage extremely difficult.

[Inyc]

Brilig, on 01 March 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

What worries me about lowering damage is making the SRM4, and 2 weaker as well. Especially the SRM2.

If you're using SRM2s, you probably aren't running a mech that cares about hard burst and maximizing damage per available hard point without regards to tonnage. You probably care about damage per weight. I think keeping the same total damage per ton of ammo will properly offset the loss of damage per shot.

the SRM4 is still in a great spot at 10 damage for 1 crit slot, nothing else comes close. Possibly the way Artemis affects SRMs could be changed. Maybe only half a ton added to SRM 2 and 4 because again, the builds that use those are builds that care about total weight.

[Terror Teddy]

SRM's damage are ok - that said...

Let them work as LRM when firing by using multiple volleys of 2 and a duration and cycle time.

2 missiles per 0,5 second and 2,5 second cycle time.

This means that an Alpha would take a total of 1,5 second instead of 0 and that can make a huge difference.

With the above change I would couple that with a lower spread as they are now fired in fast multiple volleys after each other.

[Cest7]

2 damage per missile

[Inyc]

Terror Teddy, on 01 March 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

SRM's damage are ok - that said...

Let them work as LRM when firing by using multiple volleys of 2 and a duration and cycle time.

2 missiles per 0,5 second and 2,5 second cycle time.

This means that an Alpha would take a total of 1,5 second instead of 0 and that can make a huge difference.

With the above change I would couple that with a lower spread as they are now fired in fast multiple volleys after each other.

LRMs only work this way if players don't know (or care) about missile tubes. And the missile tube system is very inconsistent.

On a Centurion, I can fire 3 LRM 10s in a single volley because it has 10 tubes. But if it tries to fire just 1 LRM 20, it will fire in 2 waves of 10. Catapult A-1 can fire 3 LRM 15s from each ear in a single volley, 90 missiles in 1 wave. Because it has 15 tubes. If it tries to fire 2 LRM20s from each ear, it will fire in 4 volleys I believe.

The reason why the splat cat and stalkers are so popular as SRM boats is because they already have the tubes to fire everything instantly, in a single volley. Forcing missiles to fire one at a time from tubes would neuter the splatcats, but then you'd just see everyone run the 4 SRM6, 4 ML, 2 LL stalkers instead.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Aim64C, on 01 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

I would just like to point out that in tabletop, SRMs do 2 points of damage per missile. Yet armor is only worth 16 points per ton (half of MWO).

By that, and that alone, all missiles are technically nerfed in comparison to tabletop varieties.

Plenty of brawlers out there do just fine without SRMs or with only a nominal addition of them.

Hell - I've done over 200 points of damage with 2 medium lasers in a catapult with torso-mounted lasers (it was an ECM **** fest against our team). And I'm not all that great with lasers. I'm just relatively decent at being somewhat difficult to kill. ... When I'm not doing something ********, that is.

So, I really don't have much in the way of sympathy for these crowds who like to say that SRMs are some kind of god weapon. I don't have that much of a problem with them, and other players do just fine, as well.

200 damage with med lasers, thats 3.25 shots from a splat kat, at 3 shots you did 5 per shot if you managed to keep it on target the entire time and in one place .... yeah that seems balanced.

[Terror Teddy]

Inyc, on 01 March 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

The reason why the splat cat and stalkers are so popular as SRM boats is because they already have the tubes to fire everything instantly, in a single volley. Forcing missiles to fire one at a time from tubes would neuter the splatcats, but then you'd just see everyone run the 4 SRM6, 4 ML, 2 LL stalkers instead.

not a problem really with the huge weight and speed difference.

[TheFlayedman]

spkat cats are a bit good i tried one a couple of days ago and won 4 out of 4 games but found it too easy so i doubt ill play it again