18 replies to this topic

[aptest]

this is my basic thought on how good balance with light mechs should be.

if A can out-fight B, B needs to outrun A. therefore there's never a situation that pilot of B is ****** if he A gets close once because A can't stick on B. On the other hand, B can't take on A because A has stronger weapons/armor.

example:
the jenner need to be slower than the spider
and the 3L raven needs to be slower than the jenner.
but the 2x Raven needs to be faster than the jenner, but slower than the spider.

[Sug]

aptest, on 28 February 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

the jenner need to be slower than the spider
and the 3L raven needs to be slower than the jenner.
but the 2x Raven needs to be faster than the jenner, but slower than the spider.

You're assuming the faster mech would use it's speed to run away and not circle strafe the slower mech to death. As long as there's no penalty for speed, faster mechs will always have the advantage.

Example: If moving at 140kph made you hard to hit but also made it hard for you to aim, then speed would be used for running away.

Since speed makes you hard to hit but gives no penalty to your own accuracy it's better to use your speed offensively.

Edited by Sug, 28 February 2013 - 10:54 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Heh, well it sorta was that way in Closed Beta. Problem is mechs going over a certain speed on this game engine basically breaks the server. Hence, the speed and engine caps. We had Commandos going 200K at one point and Hunchies at 130+.

[Slaytronic]

slazerbacks yummy

[Lord Ikka]

Faster doesn't equal better. Slower Mechs can still destroy their faster counterparts. While it is a part of balance, it isn't the only factor in the equation of Lights.

Edited by Lord Ikka, 28 February 2013 - 10:55 PM.

[Sug]

Don't forget 100kph Awesomes.

[Vasces Diablo]

Who defines "out-fight"?

[Johnny Reb]

Lord Ikka, on 28 February 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Faster doesn't equal better. Slower Mechs can still destroy their faster counterparts. While it is a part of balance, it isn't the only factor in the equation of Lights.

I will take my old 130+ hunchie with 9 small lasers anytime in a close fight!

edit: and I say 130+ cause I think I had it around 150+! Xl 400 in a hunch basically.

Edited by Johnny Reb, 28 February 2013 - 10:58 PM.

[aptest]

Sug, on 28 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

You're assuming the faster mech would use it's speed to run away and not circle strafe the slower mech to death. As long as there's no penalty for speed, faster mechs will always have the advantage.

Since speed makes you hard to hit but gives no penalty to your own accuracy it's better to use your speed offensively.

but it's not like one mech is slow and the other is fast. the faster mech is going to do about 10kph more than the slower one, which will put both of them at the 130+ kph range. so this doesn't become as big a consideration as you make it out to be. The less armored/waponised mech should have a larger array of options to compensate. otherwise the more potent mech will just run him down every time.

Vasces Diablo, on 28 February 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Who defines "out-fight"?

can you deny that the 3L beats the crap out of most jenners?

[Lord Ikka]

aptest, on 28 February 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

but it's not like one mech is slow and the other is fast. the faster mech is going to do about 10kph more than the slower one, which will put both of them at the 130+ kph range. so this doesn't become as big a consideration as you make it out to be. The less armored/waponised mech should have a larger array of options to compensate. otherwise the more potent mech will just run him down every time.

This assumes that all Mechs were created at the same time or designed for the same reason. Most of the Mechs in-game were designed well over two hundred years ago, and were modified for various different purposes. Just because one Mech is slower doesn't mean it was designed to balance that with armor/weapons. Some systems were created due to need for Mechs produced quickly and don't have a lot of options, and others simply are older Mechs with lower-tech systems and less weaponry.

[Sug]

Lord Ikka, on 28 February 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Faster doesn't equal better. Slower Mechs can still destroy their faster counterparts. While it is a part of balance, it isn't the only factor in the equation of Lights.

Ikka please. If faster doesn't equal better where are all the 64kph Centurions, Hunchbacks, Cataphracts......Awesomes......

Ahhhh there they are. Mounting near max engine sizes going as fast as they can.

aptest, on 28 February 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

but it's not like one mech is slow and the other is fast. the faster mech is going to do about 10kph more than the slower one, which will put both of them at the 130+ kph range. so this doesn't become as big a consideration as you make it out to be. The less armored/waponised mech should have a larger array of options to compensate. otherwise the more potent mech will just run him down every time.

If there's just a 10kph difference in speed then they should be almost equal in armor and weapons...

If i'm going 120kph and your'e doing 130kph....that's like if I was standing still and you were going 10kph. I mean, yeah you'll get away in about an hour....

Edited by Sug, 28 February 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[Lord Ikka]

Sug, on 28 February 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

Ikka please. If faster doesn't equal better where are all the 64kph Centurions, Hunchbacks, Cataphracts......Awesomes......

Ahhhh there they are. Mounting near max engine sizes going as fast as they can.

I pilot a HBK 4H with the standard engine, works fairly well. But my point is that speed isn't everything, especially with Light Mechs. They all go fast, simply increasing or decreasing their speed is not balancing the fundamental issues with certain Mechs.

[Vasces Diablo]

aptest, on 28 February 2013 - 10:58 PM, said:

can you deny that the 3L beats the crap out of most jenners?

Yes I can.

While many people running 3L's soup up the engine and run streaks, not all do. Additionally, some pilots are absolutly deadly in a jenner. It has as much to do with the pilot as the mech. Not to mention that the example you've provided is the most supportive to your position as many consider the (non-stock) 3L to be OP. How does spider vs commando rank? What about Raven 2x vs 4x? What happens when poeple modify their load out? etc...

Some day, someone will be known and feared for their skill in a Flea. Does that mean the flea should be slower than all other lights?

[aptest]

Lord Ikka, on 28 February 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

This assumes that all Mechs were created at the same time or designed for the same reason. Most of the Mechs in-game were designed well over two hundred years ago, and were modified for various different purposes. Just because one Mech is slower doesn't mean it was designed to balance that with armor/weapons. Some systems were created due to need for Mechs produced quickly and don't have a lot of options, and others simply are older Mechs with lower-tech systems and less weaponry.

unfortunately we don't have in this game balance through economy since mechs can't get killed and since mech prices are more or less the same.

Your argument from a "preserve the integrity of the world" perspective is great. the problem of implementing it is that it puts into the "playable" game (we're using under 20 mechs at this point) mechs that arn't of any use in the general case. In addition you're basically saying that power creep is an ok game element in this game (translation: the mech im using now is going to become useless in half a year) because "the clans are coming".

[aptest]

Vasces Diablo, on 28 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Yes I can.

While many people running 3L's soup up the engine and run streaks, not all do. Additionally, some pilots are absolutly deadly in a jenner. It has as much to do with the pilot as the mech. Not to mention that the example you've provided is the most supportive to your position as many consider the (non-stock) 3L to be OP. How does spider vs commando rank? What about Raven 2x vs 4x? What happens when poeple modify their load out? etc...

Some day, someone will be known and feared for their skill in a Flea. Does that mean the flea should be slower than all other lights?

Well,

to answer your question (btw, im using the 4x), obviously using the 3L (or the ECM commando for that matter) is an easy answer since it's a recognized strong build. I think most jenners can take out the a raven 4x of equal skill due to having superior weapon hardpoints. Jenners in general have more (and more effective) hardpoints than the other lights (barring the 3L with his tag/narc => medlas/srm conversion).

im not familiar with every match up out there, so I can't comment with respect to "Spider VS commando". I do understand though that at least one commando is considered "easy mode" whereas even the ECM spider is considered trash by the community.

[Gaan Cathal]

aptest, on 28 February 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

to answer your question (btw, im using the 4x), obviously using the 3L (or the ECM commando for that matter) is an easy answer since it's a recognized strong build. I think most jenners can take out the a raven 4x of equal skill due to having superior weapon hardpoints. Jenners in general have more (and more effective) hardpoints than the other lights (barring the 3L with his tag/narc => medlas/srm conversion).

For the record, the Jenner has better hardpoints than the 3L also. The fact of the matter is (and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't run an XL295 in my 3L) that a faster light with comparable (i.e. non-joke) firepower will win a fight in open terrain. Cover shakes things up, but the mechanics are such that the faster mech will win a circle jerk with direct fire weaponry. Streaks, of course, ignore this. They are also tardated.

[Vasces Diablo]

aptest, on 28 February 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Well,

to answer your question (btw, im using the 4x), obviously using the 3L (or the ECM commando for that matter) is an easy answer since it's a recognized strong build. I think most jenners can take out the a raven 4x of equal skill due to having superior weapon hardpoints. Jenners in general have more (and more effective) hardpoints than the other lights (barring the 3L with his tag/narc => medlas/srm conversion).

im not familiar with every match up out there, so I can't comment with respect to "Spider VS commando". I do understand though that at least one commando is considered "easy mode" whereas even the ECM spider is considered trash by the community.

Gaan Cathal, on 28 February 2013 - 11:29 PM, said:

For the record, the Jenner has better hardpoints than the 3L also. The fact of the matter is (and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't run an XL295 in my 3L) that a faster light with comparable (i.e. non-joke) firepower will win a fight in open terrain. Cover shakes things up, but the mechanics are such that the faster mech will win a circle jerk with direct fire weaponry. Streaks, of course, ignore this. They are also tardated.

and here is the illistration of my point. You never (NEVER) get agreement on which chassis and varients "out fight" the other. It's opinion, and opinion is a bad thing to base balance on. Add in the fact that people can modify mechs to no end and it's even worse. Finally, there is the not small variable that is the Pilot.

And i'll leave you with this.

If a jenner out fights a 3L, and a 3L our fights a 4X, and the 4X out fights the jenner. Who get's the speed buff and who gets the nerf?

edit: spelling and I don't get along.

Edited by Vasces Diablo, 28 February 2013 - 11:39 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

My boomcat balances light mechs quite nicely.

[aptest]

Vasces Diablo, on 28 February 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

If a jenner out fights a 3L, and a 3L our fights a 4X, and the 4X out fights the jenner. Who get's the speed buff and who gets the nerf?

I'd definitely like to see this being the case. is it?