29 replies to this topic

[iminbagdad]

Just because I can counter something doesn't mean its not OP. I can kill any cheese mech or OP mech in the game. In fact i target them on purpose because i hate them. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced more. Then I wouldnt be targeting cheese or OP mechs on purpose, I could just enjoy the game more.

[Fiachdubh]

jay35, on 01 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Some players simply want easy mode and every time a build is discovered that challenges them in combat, they run to the forums to shout "OP! Nerf!" about it. This happens with every game.

PGI, the rest of us are thankful you're not quick to listen to those complaints, because it would quickly result in a very generic experience where everyone would have to run the exact same mech before they're happy, and the entire point of the mechlab and diversity of builds would go right out the window.

Yes, Raven 3Ls are a pain in the butt to take down.

Yes, ECM makes it harder to target the mech that bears it.

Yes, the splatapult is a bit annoying and cheesy.

But they all have a place in the game and they add to the diversity of combat experiences and encourage teamplay to overcome.

People need to learn how to counter these threats on the battlefield, not just have their inexperience or desire for easy mode coddled with nerfs. And yes, all of those commonly complained about items have counters.

Here's the perfect example of this attitude on display. The fellow quoted there even admits a flight of 5 Raven 3Ls is beatable, he just doesn't like the challenge of having to beat even two of them on the field of battle. At least he's honest.

So thank you for not being easily swayed by such attitudes. Hopefully this suggestion will provide ammunition to your internal balance discussions at the office and serve as a reminder that keeping the game challenging and diverse is as important to the overall experience as making it accessible to new players may be.

Agree completely.

Thank you for posting this, it is so good to see a sensible non crying post for a change. Gotten to the stage where I feel nothing but contempt and even a unpleasant feeling in the pit of my stumoch every time I see yet another cry baby post. You made my morning.

Edited by Fiachdubh, 03 March 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Stringburka]

Imbalances benefit players who want "easy mode". A balanced system, per definition, has only "medium" mode regardless of what you pilot. People who like easy mode should prefer 'mechs with different power level since they can play the top-power ones then.

And a balanced system also means people can drive more different 'mechs. Imbalances tend to lead to either just one 'mech being run, or a system of paper rock scissors of a few builds that beat each other.

In a balanced system, everyone can play different 'mechs and still have a good chance of winning.

So your criticism isn't just communicated in a rude way, it's also simply incorrect.

Edited by Stringburka, 03 March 2013 - 04:31 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

iminbagdad, on 03 March 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:

Just because I can counter something doesn't mean its not OP. I can kill any cheese mech or OP mech in the game. In fact i target them on purpose because i hate them. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced more. Then I wouldnt be targeting cheese or OP mechs on purpose, I could just enjoy the game more.

Agreed. A target should be a priority target based on the pilot's ability, even perhaps class. Not because of a particular build or device. That makes the game less about skill and more about build composition. That is a balance issue.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 March 2013 - 07:31 AM.

[buttmonkey]

to the op

i dont know if you have realised but there are no light mechs other than 3l on the battlefield these days. thats adapting, using the only feasable light mech.

i HATE 3Ls but you what, im buying one next because i know that if im in ANY other light mech and i come up against a raven 3l i will lose. end of story.

the very fact that people always choose the ECM varient to run on most mechs says something to me.

i run with a lot of founders and its the general impression amongst us that MWO was better and more fun to play in closed beta

[Lykaon]

jay35, on 01 March 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

.
But they all have a place in the game and they add to the diversity of combat experiences and encourage teamplay to overcome.

This statement right here shows me that you lack a deeper understanding of meta game play and cause and effect relationships when certain features of a competitive game are clearly superior to other options.

Diversity? how many loadouts of A1 catapults do you see that are not splattercats? Would you say the ratio of splattercat to other catapult builds is 1:1 or maybe 2:1 A more realistic guess would be 20 splattercats for every catapult of any other varient or configuration. 20:1 ratio is not diversity by any stretch of the imagination.

This is indicative of a Flavor of The Month situation where a feature in a game is out of alignment with the rest of the game design.

ECM is an effective force multiplyer and clearly a superior feature that is desireable.This means that players will want to use it since ECM is chassis specific this limits choices in chassis selection.This is the opposite of diversity.

When ever a particular feature/build/strategy has a clear advantage players will flock to this.The more players using this "FoTM" the less diversity we will experience.It is always worth investigating a "FoTM" to guard against a game falling prey to diluted diversity.

I will point out that most players do not convey this concern when posting.Many do not even fully grasp what it is they are specificly concerned about.

For example: 'nerf Raven 3Ls they are OPed!" does not convey any specific data.If however they made an intelligent post about how ECM effecting chassis selection combined with streak and ECM interactions has made the Raven 3L clearly superior to every other light mech then they may have a point to make.


We are beta testers do not forget this.It is our function to supply credible and useful feedback to the development team.We should always be questioning new features or interaction of features and especially pay attention to relationships with features that create FoTM situations.

[Gremlich Johns]

jay35, on 02 March 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

And yes, ECM does improve the game because it does add depth to the tactical aspect of gameplay.

But no, it has negated the need for a scout which is part of better tactical gameplay (and role warfare). This makes your argument specious. A good team will have at least one scout equipped with ECM spotting the enemy, but you rarely see that in-game. Scouts spotting, that is. Why scout when you have stealth from 3067 or whenever after that date in 3050.

In the Tabletop, ECM in 3050 does not work the way it has been implemented in-game currently. A more real-life portrayal of ECM would improve the game.

[Lykaon]

jay35, on 02 March 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

As for the rest of the discussion, it's like some of you don't actually play the game much and form your opinions based on one or two matches you played that give you an incomplete picture of things.

I've played easily a couple hundred games in the past week alone and of them I could count on one hand the number of times there was more than 2-3 ECM mechs on my team, it's literally that rare to happen that more than 2-3 per team run an ECM mech, and most often it's just one and occasionally two. Same goes for splatcats, D-DCs, and any of the other things people like to whine about. Also, your team has an equal chance to have these builds so it's not like it's causing any sort of true imbalance in the game.

It is clear to me that you are not playing this game the same way I have been.And as such your opinions are heavily influenced by a lack of a broader understanding.

I have also played thousands of matches.I play as a PuG in 4 man teams and in 8 v 8.It is fairly evident that you are an exclusivley PuG player or you would know that it is routine in 8 v 8 premades to see at least 50% group composition of ECM.

Frequnetly premade teams include more than 50% ECM I have even seen 100% ECM compositions with enough frequency to merit concern.

Seeing how at least 4 mechs will be ECM equiped (2 DDCs 2 3Ls) that leaves 4 non ECM mech on a team on a good day.However these 4 non ECM mechs can practically be garunteed to be one of the following.

Spattercat
2 AC20 K2 (Blattcat)
Poptartaphract
PPC boat stalker

Now you may ask who cares what premades do?

Well you should because premades are the crucible of strategy in this game.The higher level of competiton in premade vs premade causes rapid refinement of strategy and tactics to occur.
Any new and highly developed tactic/strategy or build you encounter as a PuG was more than likely developed in the 8 v 8 arena.

It trickles down until eventually the techniques developed in 8 v 8 premades dominate the PuG matches because even the casualist of PuG will eventually see what is working and what is not.


Now if the crucible has rendered down all of mechwarrior down to 6-7 mech builds what does this say for diversity? There is literally no reason to use any other mechs than these...

Raven 3L (best in show light mech ECM +SSRMs)

Atlas AS7D-DC (PPCs+big torso gun and/or missiles + ECM)

Poptartaphract (jumpjets PPCs and gauss)

Splattercat (jumpjets,big XL engine 90 point alphas all day long)

Blattcat (2 AC 20 ambush killer)

Thorshammer stalker (PPC boat)

Any other choices would be a variation on the theme or a compromise in efficency.

This should be a point of concern.Most of it is directly resulting from how ECM is currently implimented.

[Rotta]

Unfortunately 3L is OP. I play from Europe, and the guys in USA cannot even understand how OP they are. I have to take from half to full screen width of advance to shoot any light mech in close range.

3L is then the best light mech from them all.
1. Very fast, fastest from all the ravens
2. ECM
3. The best weapons for its type.
4. 8vs8 premade team has 99.999% of time 2x3L Raven.

I have been pasting the following to other posts, and here it is again.. http://mwomercs.com/...0-mech-balance/


ECM is OP. It mostly means that you do not need AMS anymore. Makes thermal vision even more important. People play almost only ECM variants from its type, I would say that this is highly decreasing the usable mech count. Also, if your team has DDC, rather often the players will just follow him. If your team does not have ECM, Incoming missile warning will soon give you a headache. Also, if the enemy team has ECM, and yours does not, very often your team will lose. 8vs8 premades, do have that 2x3L Raven and often also 1-2 DDC, what might be the reason? Do you really think ECM is not OP?

Any fix to fix the ECM suits me fine. Even to increase its weight so that it hinders the other attributes of the mech.

[StalaggtIKE]

jay35, on 02 March 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

I've played easily a couple hundred games in the past week alone and of them I could count on one hand the number of times there was more than 2-3 ECM mechs on my team, it's literally that rare to happen that more than 2-3 per team run an ECM mech, and most often it's just one and occasionally two. Same goes for splatcats, D-DCs, and any of the other things people like to whine about. Also, your team has an equal chance to have these builds so it's not like it's causing any sort of true imbalance in the game.

That's not balance; only that each drop is a gamble.

• Will I get ECM on my team this time?
  
• Oh, jackpot! 3 RVN-3L!
  
• No. I wonder if anyone has TAG or PPC then.

If you're truly running into such small amounts of ECM, it must be Elo. Now, I don't know whether that means you fall on the low end or the high end. However, I know new players can't afford ECM. In retrospect most 4-man/8-man teams ran at least a couple of ECM, as they have no qualms in admitting if something is beneficial. You can deduct from that whatever you like.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 04 March 2013 - 06:14 AM.