13 replies to this topic

[Win Ott]

I am very much enjoying your latest map (Alpine). The size and landscape allow for many different ways to play. But Alpine does not lend itself to certain mechs in my garage.

This got me thinking: Perhaps, as the number of maps increase, there may be a way to tweak it so we have some ability to choose the right mech for the job?

How about this: As we are allocated into an open game, we are told the name of the map and are given a choice of one of the four mechs in our "Mech Ready" box? I don't know how feasible that is to implement but I think it would be a well-received addition to the game.

Thanks for a great game, and keep making more maps!

[Donas]

Lots of threads on this. Basicly for me personally it boils down to this:

Giving people the ability to choose their mech tailored to a specific environment dumbs the game down. It removes creativity of strategy and tactics, and lends itself to min-max alphastrike boating builds. Having builds that are high reward, (splatcats, poptart catas, 6ppc stalkers, etc) means that for them to be balanced, they also need to be high risk. On the myriad small maps, short range assassin builds have little risk in that there is so much terrain that with ecm( and even without it) they can essentially get into deadly range for free. Thats not high risk. That being said, we have all ready adapted and learned to live with heat being a major variable (caustic to frozen city) and nobody complains too much, they just adjust their strategy and tactics and move on.

Alpine Peaks adds another variable, Range. Its to be expected that folks with extremely specialized (very pc term there) and unbalanced builds are either going to have to learn some new tricks to be effective, or slightly modify their build so that they have some flexibility. Alpine peaks is not an abberation. The Devs have all ready said that more Large maps are coming, and one of them is a desert. THAT will be an adjustment. Not only will extreme range be an issue, but high heat as well. will there be skwawking about it? Yep. You betcha. But ultimately, in time, people will adjust and become more well rounded as pilots. They will do so either by coordinating better with their teammates (running screens and distractions to let your brawlers close range, or baiting the enemy into fields of fire where the brawlers can ambush them) or by modifying their builds. (dropping a couple of their 56 medium lasers for an LRM10 or something)

Dont get me wrong, I'm all for wonky lopsided builds. I personally have an Atlas that has nothing on it with more than a 300 or so meter range. Its a challenge on Alpine peaks to sneak in close enough to get some good damage for my team, but it can be done. Am I some uber-pilot? nope. But I try to think outside the box and adjust my methods depending on what the situation demands.

one last problem that being able to select a mech tuned to a map presents is this... When everyone can bring their minmax build to every map, so that they can be effective, everyone ELSE will be required to bring a minmax build, just to stand a chance. That road leads to very little variety, both in the mechlab, and tactically upon the field. Not good for the game.

Edited by Donas, 03 March 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Win Ott]

I understand your arguments and I pretty much agree with you. But it seems to me that a bit of player choice would improve things a bit. I try to build my mechs to be able to play all the maps, but sometimes it would be nice if I could take a specific mech on a specific map and see how it runs.

[Cubivorre]

Donas, on 03 March 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Lots of threads on this. Basicly for me personally it boils down to this:

Giving people the ability to choose their mech tailored to a specific environment dumbs the game down.

The devs already confirmed this will happen.

Edited by Cubivorre, 03 March 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[Donas]

Win Ott, on 03 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

but sometimes it would be nice if I could take a specific mech on a specific map and see how it runs.

Yep. A training room should be 100% selectable. Agreed.

[jay35]

Donas, on 03 March 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Lots of threads on this. Basicly for me personally it boils down to this:

Giving people the ability to choose their mech tailored to a specific environment dumbs the game down

No, actually it does not. It does precisely the opposite of that. It allows for the additional viability of a wider range of tactical and unique builds, each suited for specific environments. When you are forced to account for all maps with one mech, you are exceptionally limited in what you can do with that mech and still have it function well on all maps. Allowing the user to select a mech, loadout, and camo that is appropriate to the environment in which they will be fighting increases the variety and diversity of builds you will see in addition to the generic "safe" builds that everyone currently runs. This is also how things were in all previous MechWarrior games.
Forcing only random map assignment ensures that only a set of generic "safe" builds will be used and that is truly the "dumbing down" of the entire concept of customization of mechs and the mechlab. It's the antithesis to MechWarrior's multiplayer legacy.

Edited by jay35, 03 March 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[ragingmunkyz]

+1 for the idea of selecting your mech after you see the map you're playing on. Glad to see its being talked about and that there are plans to implement something like this.

Have to agree that it does the exact opposite of "dumbing the game down." Dumbed down is when only a few builds are viable because they have to take into account a myriad of different scenarios. The most fun part of this game for me so far is the ability to customize, having to run the same optimized build all the time will make things pretty stale. Its much more interesting/intelligent to have to build and specialize a variety of mechs so that I can adjust to various gametypes and maps on the fly, and then I get to try out all kinds of fun builds.

[Torquemada]

I like this idea. We already have four 'active' slots in our mech lab where we can choose which mech is shown there. Perhaps in addition you could specify which mech can be randomly selected for a given map as long as all maps are covered by the 1-4 mechs in your ready list.

1 mech - assigned to all maps as currently
2 mechs - one may be assigned to Alpine only, the second to all other maps
3 mechs - one might be assigned to Alpine only, one to alpine and to river city and one to all remaining maps

etc etc

[Syllogy]

Community Warfare will address this.

Short version: When choosing a planet to attack, you will see the map you are going to drop in, and you will be able to choose your mech before you drop.

[Donas]

ragingmunkyz, on 03 March 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Have to agree that it does the exact opposite of "dumbing the game down." ~~. The most fun part of this game for me so far is the ability to customize, having to run the same optimized build all the time will make things pretty stale. Its much more interesting/intelligent to have to build and specialize a variety of mechs so that I can adjust to various gametypes and maps on the fly, and then I get to try out all kinds of fun builds.

Dumbed down may have sounded harsh. Another problem I have with being able to select mech/map in PUG's is that the learning curve for new players will become extremely steep in an environment where it is all ready so. New guy walking in for the first time getting one-shotted by some vet's optimized build in a pickup match is not a way to grow a player base. Now, I understand that it happens, but when you give PUG players the option to pick and choose like that it will become much worse. New players wont stick around to learn and spend money with PGI. They'll just say "This sucks, all I do is get shot once and I'm dead" and leave for another game.

Now, in community warfare? I'm 100% for it. That will be a game where the strong and the clever do well, and they will be extremely competetive. It will take skill, strategy, tactics, and comprehensivesly tuned builds, and coordinated builds within the team to win.

But a PUG is not the place for it. Its a Pick-up-Game. its not meant to be some planned campaign mission drop.

I also enjoy customization. Its probably my favorite part of the game. But getting dropped in an environment that isnt idealized for my specific build doesn't steal the fun. It enhances it. It creates a challenge to be overcome. One shotting folks with a stalker is boring to me. Tried it. One shotted some folks, and sold the mech. I enjoy adversity. I enjoy being forced to use a build in a way it wasnt designed. That to me is tactical skill. That keeps it interesting. Pointing and shoot? Naa, it just doesnt do it for me.

As for the increased variety with mapmech selectivity? I respectfully disagree. All it will do is populate every map with whatever Boat-build has the best alpha strike on that given map. There will be a handful of viable builds for each map, and thats it. Not only will there be loads more players making use of extremely specialized builds, but they will be required if you want to be anything but an XP and CBILL farming plot on legs. I dont see where the variety comes in. Where as with a balanced build, something that is dangerous at any range, under varying heat conditions offers you the ability to use every weapon in the game.

I dont know if folks just dont want a challenge, or if their version of fun is essentially playing CoD with only sniper maps and bolt rifles. One shot, one kill. boring. Getting instantly cored out in 2 seconds in an Awesome? boring. Being the one to do it? Lame. Where is the brawl? Where is the strategy? where is the piloting skill? And what is the gratification in being able to min-max a PuG every single drop?

Again, just my opinion and your mileage may vary, but mech/map selection seems like just another extension of the min-max/alpha-strike-or-bust culture that seems to always find its way in.

[Roughneck45]

Syllogy, on 04 March 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Community Warfare will address this.

Short version: When choosing a planet to attack, you will see the map you are going to drop in, and you will be able to choose your mech before you drop.

Yeah, thats how I think it will happen.

Right now, random maps are just fine. But once they put in the planet battles, it only makes sense to know where we are fighting.

Personally, id love a mix of both. Planets with a set amount of maps, depending on what the environment was.

[ragingmunkyz]

I respect your opinion Donas, and you've obviously been a part of this community for longer than me, but I'd like to have a little more faith in PUGs (not alot of faith, just enough). As a long time vet of the Tribes series, I've seen some incredibly impressive teamwork in PUGs, and I think a PUG is capable of basic strategy. I'd like to think people in this community would be capable of calling some basic roles before a match starts, as I've seen it in other games. If you could have someone saying "Hey guys, I'll go light and scout" or "We don't have enough ECM, I'll take my DDC" it could only enhance the gameplay experience, and give players an opportunity to engage in some strategy rather than "Lets find the other guys and shoot them."

Don't get me wrong, shooting the other guys is fun, but if this game is going to hold my interest for a long time, its going to have to make me strategize and get creative as opposed to just playing TDM or FFA. It think it should be obvious that this feature will become necessary with community warfare, but since the game is still in beta, it would be great to see the idea implemented so that they can work any issues out of it and we can see what its going to look like.

I see what you mean about people optimizing builds for each map, and I suppose its a matter of perspective; I think one optimized build for every map is more boring than several optimized builds for several maps. I guess thats just a matter of opinion. People will always look for the "best" build, but this could allow people to at least have some variation in mech choices rather than just the one "best."

Edited by ragingmunkyz, 04 March 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Donas]

ragingmunkyz, on 04 March 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

I respect your opinion Donas, and you've obviously been a part of this community for longer than me, but I'd like to have a little more faith in PUGs (not alot of faith, just enough). As a long time vet of the Tribes series, I've seen some incredibly impressive teamwork in PUGs, and I think a PUG is capable of basic strategy. I'd like to think people in this community would be capable of calling some basic roles before a match starts, as I've seen it in other games. If you could have someone saying "Hey guys, I'll go light and scout" or "We don't have enough ECM, I'll take my DDC" it could only enhance the gameplay experience, and give players an opportunity to engage in some strategy rather than "Lets find the other guys and shoot them."

Don't get me wrong, shooting the other guys is fun, but if this game is going to hold my interest for a long time, its going to have to make me strategize and get creative as opposed to just playing TDM or FFA. It think it should be obvious that this feature will become necessary with community warfare, but since the game is still in beta, it would be great to see the idea implemented so that they can work any issues out of it and we can see what its going to look like.

I see what you mean about people optimizing builds for each map, and I suppose its a matter of perspective; I think one optimized build for every map is more boring than several optimized builds for several maps. I guess thats just a matter of opinion. People will always look for the "best" build, but this could allow people to at least have some variation in mech choices rather than just the one "best."

You really make some great points here. And the communication factor during mech select is an idea that I'd really go for, as it sounds like you and I are pretty like-minded in what we'd like to see. Role-players calling out roles and working together as a team. That would be AWESOME. My fear is that dropping into a pug you and I would be going up against 8 boaters that immediately flipped to heat vision and started peppering us before we even make it out of our own base. I'm worried about the lowest common denominator.

Also, as this is beta, I would also love to see the ability to select mechs/maps as a means of playtesting the community warfare gameplay mode to work the kinks out before release. It is beta after all.

And I'm also with you on not wanting to have one build that is optimized to be vanilla everywhere and good nowhere. Like I said above, I have a few builds that are really unbalanced. I just accept that I'll need some teamwork and general sneakiness to make myself useful in a big map.

+1 to the guy that disagrees with me

[Donas]

Roughneck45, on 04 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Personally, id love a mix of both. Planets with a set amount of maps, depending on what the environment was.

cool idea.