117 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

Ari Dian, on 03 March 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

47-51 max free slots. Unless you add the 6 slots from the engine, but this would be wrong. As you always need them and they are not free slots. Each mech has 47 free slots for whatever you want to equip. Plus one for each missing arm activator.


To all who say ECM is fine.
How often have you seen a mech, that could fit a ECM, without an ECM?
I would love to see some numbers from PGI. But my guess is 99% of all ECM able mechs use one. Heck, most choose the chassis because of the ECM slot over other variants that cant use it.
If this alone is not an indicator that it is to powerfull i dont know what else. Once a piece of equippment is so good that you have to use it no matter what, it becomes to overpowered.

In this case he is right. 1.5t is not equal to 1.5t anymore. If one item is so much better and dont allow any alternatives there is something wrong. PGI cant really change anything on the weight of the items. But they could change something on what these do. And something has to be done on this.

This is the point!

[Khobai]

ECM should not do AMS' job better than AMS does. When that starts happening its obvious ECM is not balanced.

[Tincan Nightmare]

IceCase88, on 03 March 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Size is absolutely irrelevant. Comparing BAP, TAG, NARC, and ECM together is comparing apples to oranges. They all have different roles and different functions. Comparing ECM in terms of weapons (i.e. the SL to AC20 comparison) is also comparing apples to oranges. The arguments are entirely illogical. Additionally, if you get into the argument of size and crits you are effectively limiting the mechs which can carry it. Size is absolutely irrelevant. I never said the increasing of the price of ECM is the best idea but it is entirely more relevant than size. Additionally, you do not need a large device to disrupt things. Just look at an image of a cell phone jammer compared to a cell phone for an example. Both are small devices.

Let's beat this dead horse some more. ECM has 3 counters through mechanical means (ECM, TAG, PPCs). 4 if you include component destruction. It only impedes the use of 2 weapons systems (LRMs, SSRMs) and only if you do not have TAG or ECM. You can still use any ballistic weapon, laser, PPC, and SRMs. It works as intended and according to TT (it is not functioning like angel ecm). PGI needs to work on the indirect firing of LRMs.

Again, size is irrelevant and a dumb, illogical argument. Using my cell phone and cell phone jammer example you can say a mech's computer system weighs 1.5 tons so an ECM unit is effectively disrupting a similar sized system. Again making size irrelevant.

So 3 hard counters. Yet how effective are those counters. TAG requires you to keep the target painted (not so easy if the target is a fast moving light) just so you get the benefit to lock and fire missiles (if you can keep the target painted long enough to get the lock). PPC's require a direct hit every 4 seconds, again not so simple to any quick target. And for both they only effect a single target while ECM covers a whole area so shooting a mech with a PPC is useless in defeating ECM if another enemy mech with ECM is close to the target. Now ECM itself is 100 percent reliable in defeating ECM, as long as you have more ECM units then them, otherwise you lose the numbers war. And it doesn't work like the Guardian ECM in TT because that didn't effect LRM's directly at all, just made them lose any bonuses aquired from systems like Artemis or NARC, and streaks could still fire they just became standard SRM's. And component destruction is a pretty poor fourth choice for a hard counter, when the unit can be mounted in any body location and you have to chew thru armor first to get at it. The issue for size is that it costs a small amount of tonnage and crit space for an overwhelming effect on the fight beyond any other piece of equipment.

[Livewyr]

Sorry, but I had to stop at this post in catching up on the thread:

IceCase88, on 03 March 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Comparing BAP, TAG, NARC, and ECM together is comparing apples to oranges. They all have different roles and different functions.

True, they all have different roles.. in the same field.
BAP: targeting for missiles. (reducing lock time)
TAG. targeting for missiles (since we don't have bombs or artillery (yet) (increasing accuracy)
NARC. targeting for missiles (increasing accuracy)
ECM. Nullifying the use of missiles. (which it shouldn't do, it SHOULD just negate BAP, TAG, NARC, and Artemis)

IceCase88, on 03 March 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Comparing ECM in terms of weapons (i.e. the SL to AC20 comparison) is also comparing apples to oranges.

Well.. it would be, if Guardian ECM was actually Guardian ECM.. currently it's a little Frankenmonster made up of Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, and Null-Signature System.. that NULLIFIES an entire class of weapon. When your 'equipment' disables another persons weaponry, you effectively have weaponry. Current ECM isn't a far stretch from being a weapon.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Rivqua, on 04 March 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

It's not that you don't see 3Ls without ECM, if they couldn't fit ECM, you just wouldn't see Ravens,period, because the jenner does it much better with 6 MLs. The ECM is a buff to the Raven chassi.

My Stalker has BAP fitted, it requires it to do it's job. Even if It could fit ECM, it would have BAP fitted, because ECM would not help out in any way what so ever. So we should nerf BAP ?

Cmon, be reasonable. What does ECM do that "ruins" the game, it affects 1 weapon system (SSRM), and only that when it's around, and it can't be around all the time....

So if your Stalker could mount ECM you couldn't come up with the 3 tons to mount both, on an 85 ton assault mech? And what job does BAP do for your Stalker that it wouldn't benefit more from the numerous benefits that ECM entails. And it does a lot more than just disable streaks, it also effects LRM's as well as stripping radar from enemy mechs within 180 meters and even disabling IFF to locate friendlies and increasing the chances of friendly fire.

[Accursed Richards]

Let's sum it up like this:

If you could take ECM or 1.5 tons of other stuff and you're at least a little concerned about being as effective as possible, which would you choose?

[Odanan]

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I propose a new laser.

Super Mega Laser

Does 25 damage. Generates no heat. Weighs 1.5 tons and takes 2 crit slots. Does not use a hard point. Has max range of 1500 meters. Fires purple beam. Can only be used on JR7-D, CLPT-A1, HBK-4SP, STK-5M and CTF-3D.

It will be fine because matchmaker will make sure there are an equal number on each team.

This. ^

I know the devs want to add this sort of "Electronic Warfare" to MWO, but they should not rely EW in a sole 1.5 tons equipment.

ECM should make harder to detect targets, and that's all. More functions, like LRM and SSRM increased difficulty to lock, could come (costly) through modules.

Command Console should counter ECM automatically - and be available to more mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Accursed Richards, on 04 March 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

Let's sum it up like this:

If you could take ECM or 1.5 tons of other stuff and you're at least a little concerned about being as effective as possible, which would you choose?

Not a fair question. I would take an ECM on TT with 1.5 tons to spare also.

Doc Holliday, on 03 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

I propose a new laser.

Super Mega Laser
Fires purple beam.

And swears like Samuel L Jackson when fired!

[Odanan]

Tincan Nightmare, on 04 March 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

So if your Stalker could mount ECM you couldn't come up with the 3 tons to mount both, on an 85 ton assault mech? And what job does BAP do for your Stalker that it wouldn't benefit more from the numerous benefits that ECM entails. And it does a lot more than just disable streaks, it also effects LRM's as well as stripping radar from enemy mechs within 180 meters and even disabling IFF to locate friendlies and increasing the chances of friendly fire.

And it works for every teammate close.

[Livewyr]

I would like to say that I think the campaign for exposing ECM as being an imbalanced monster is having success...

Initially it was a battle between "zomg this is awesome, no more MissileWarrior: Online" and "zomg wtf, welcome to ECMWarrior: Online" and it was largely a battle of the play-styles. (Heavy/Assault brawlers loved it, and Missile boats hated it... because it greatly effected their play-styles.)
Initially I was in the "zomg wtf ECMWarrior" crowd because I like playing all roles effectively, and it knocked out missile support as I knew it, then I built a fast missileboat with TAG and started taking advantage of ECM noobies in the open and switched to the "ECM is fine, adapt to it crowd" before finally settling in on ECM itself...Being extremely effective and a must-have, for almost no weight, and no size..and the only restriction being the chassis that carry it.

I'm glad to see that a lot of critical eyes have switched from viewing how ECM effected their play-style and judging from there, to the actual balance of ECM.. benefits vs costs.

You can spot the people who still judge it according to their play-style because they say it's absolutely fine without being able to explain how it's balanced. There was a whole thread asking for someone to identify the downside of ECM...not one was had. (The closest was that it was restricted to certain variants.. but that still wasn't a downside of ECM itself..)

Good to see the progression towards objective balancing...we still have a ways to go.

[MustrumRidcully]

Odanan, on 04 March 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

This. ^

I know the devs want to add this sort of "Electronic Warfare" to MWO, but they should not rely EW in a sole 1.5 tons equipment.

ECM should make harder to detect targets, and that's all. More functions, like LRM and SSRM increased difficulty to lock, could come (costly) through modules.

Command Console should counter ECM automatically - and be available to more mechs.

They did it the wrong way around, I think.

We can by default already target enemies and relay targeting information to enable indirect fire support, without any real effort beyond targeting a mech.
This already should normally require certain equipment or modules to do so (C3, BAP, Information Gathering and Sharing or Recieving Modules)

But instead, they took ECM and made all the default stuff go away. That's the wrong approach.

ECM would be used to add another layer to the whole deal - make all that equipment and modules work a bit differently - less effective perhaps.

I was halfway expecting during Closed Beta that some of the generous indirect-fire features we already had were just part of the beta test, to show how the metagame would work with modules for this purpose in place. Well, that never happened. but it probably should have.

Unfortunately, the devs seem to have decided that modules are an "endgame" feature, instead of part of an every day tool. You can't wait for endgame to give all these cool features. It must come earlier.

[Livewyr]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 March 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

They did it the wrong way around, I think.

We can by default already target enemies and relay targeting information to enable indirect fire support, without any real effort beyond targeting a mech.
This already should normally require certain equipment or modules to do so (C3, BAP, Information Gathering and Sharing or Recieving Modules)

But instead, they took ECM and made all the default stuff go away. That's the wrong approach.

ECM would be used to add another layer to the whole deal - make all that equipment and modules work a bit differently - less effective perhaps.

I was halfway expecting during Closed Beta that some of the generous indirect-fire features we already had were just part of the beta test, to show how the metagame would work with modules for this purpose in place. Well, that never happened. but it probably should have.

Unfortunately, the devs seem to have decided that modules are an "endgame" feature, instead of part of an every day tool. You can't wait for endgame to give all these cool features. It must come earlier.

You're pretty close, can't say I really disagree except that target location/data sharing is just part of the standard electronics. C3 **** targeting computers. (in TT it made weapons more accuracte) here I think it should make missiles more accurate, and perhaps add an aid on the screen of C3 Slaves. (like a where you should shoot to lead a mech going a certain speed with a gauss rifle or something like that. Outside of those things... C3 won't have much presence)

[hammerreborn]

Shadowsword8, on 03 March 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Haven't 8v8 premades been more or less abandonned by teams because most of the mechs would be 3L or D-DC? Great diversity there...

I've seen infinitely more teams stacking 3Ds, K2s, and A1s than D-DC/3L teams (as in I've never seen a team exclusively made of either while I've seen plenty of the others).

People don't like 8v8 for the same reason people complain about Elo, no weight matching. Kinda pointless to risk running mediums and dragons, and especially lights, when you're going to end up 3-400 tons lighter than a team that shows up in all splat cats or LRM stalkers

Edited by hammerreborn, 04 March 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 04 March 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

I've seen infinitely more teams stacking 3Ds, K2s, and A1s than D-DC/3L teams (as in I've never seen a team exclusively made of either while I've seen plenty of the others).

People don't like 8v8 for the same reason people complain about Elo, no weight matching. Kinda pointless to risk running mediums and dragons, and especially lights, when you're going to end up 3-400 tons lighter than a team that shows up in all splat cats or LRM stalkers

Well, that and the lack of diversity of mech options.

Scouts:
Raven
Jenner (maybe)
Spider (for actual scouting)

Scout/harasser:
Cicada

Light hunting:
Raven

Brawlers:
D-DC
A1 Splat
K2 AC20 cat

Snipers
PPC Stalker
PPC or PPC/Gauss 3D for jump sniping
K2 Gauss Cat
Ilya Gaussaphract

Ranged non-sniper
Ilya with UACs.

Missile support:
lulwhat?



no commandos, (non-ECM spiders), rare jenners, ravens (other than 3L), no Cicadas (other than 3M) Hunchbacks, Centurions, Trebuchets, Dragons, Cats (other than A1/K2) Cataphracts (other than Ilya/3D) Awesomes, or Atlases (other than D-DC)

Pretty much.. if it isn't ECM'd, or it isn't Cheese... you're not serious. (what does that say of ECM?)

[Hawks]

Rivqua, on 04 March 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

it affects 1 weapon system (SSRM)

Incorrect.

[Tincan Nightmare]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 March 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

They did it the wrong way around, I think.

We can by default already target enemies and relay targeting information to enable indirect fire support, without any real effort beyond targeting a mech.
This already should normally require certain equipment or modules to do so (C3, BAP, Information Gathering and Sharing or Recieving Modules)

But instead, they took ECM and made all the default stuff go away. That's the wrong approach.

ECM would be used to add another layer to the whole deal - make all that equipment and modules work a bit differently - less effective perhaps.

I was halfway expecting during Closed Beta that some of the generous indirect-fire features we already had were just part of the beta test, to show how the metagame would work with modules for this purpose in place. Well, that never happened. but it probably should have.

Unfortunately, the devs seem to have decided that modules are an "endgame" feature, instead of part of an every day tool. You can't wait for endgame to give all these cool features. It must come earlier.

Livewyr, on 04 March 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

You're pretty close, can't say I really disagree except that target location/data sharing is just part of the standard electronics. C3 **** targeting computers. (in TT it made weapons more accuracte) here I think it should make missiles more accurate, and perhaps add an aid on the screen of C3 Slaves. (like a where you should shoot to lead a mech going a certain speed with a gauss rifle or something like that. Outside of those things... C3 won't have much presence)

I made a thread about this,that one of the big problems with LRM's is the free target sharing that teams get. I understand that spotting was a rule that could be used in TT, but if you read the actual rules its obvious that its far more involved than just pushing 'R' like we do. For one, unless the spotter fires no weapons, there is a penalty to hit, plus all kinds of penalties for movement, range, etc. Instead what we get is the ability for one mech to get an enemy in LOS and boom, rain of LRM death. I'm all for enemies that are spotted and/or targeted showing up on the HUD and radar, but make it that the firing unit needs LOS to shoot unless the target is being TAGed or NARCed. Those 2 items should be the sole means of spotting for LRM's. Then maybe there would be less resistance to reducing the power of ECM. Oh and have streaks target limbs as well as torso sections, with each missile targeting seperate locations. The increased time to due significant damage with it then would counterbalance it ability to never miss, giving lights that can't carry them time to fight back.

[Doc Holliday]

Tincan Nightmare, on 04 March 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

I made a thread about this,that one of the big problems with LRM's is the free target sharing that teams get. I understand that spotting was a rule that could be used in TT, but if you read the actual rules its obvious that its far more involved than just pushing 'R' like we do. For one, unless the spotter fires no weapons, there is a penalty to hit, plus all kinds of penalties for movement, range, etc. Instead what we get is the ability for one mech to get an enemy in LOS and boom, rain of LRM death. I'm all for enemies that are spotted and/or targeted showing up on the HUD and radar, but make it that the firing unit needs LOS to shoot unless the target is being TAGed or NARCed. Those 2 items should be the sole means of spotting for LRM's. Then maybe there would be less resistance to reducing the power of ECM. Oh and have streaks target limbs as well as torso sections, with each missile targeting seperate locations. The increased time to due significant damage with it then would counterbalance it ability to never miss, giving lights that can't carry them time to fight back.

Yeah I think that would nicely take care of the LRM issue once ECM is out of the picture.

[WolvesX]

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