9 replies to this topic

[Vermaxx]

We already have the basic functions of C3 integrated into every mech.

Think about it - C3 lets mechs share targeting data. Meaning, by the most strict definitions of a Mechwarrior tech setting, your "radar" should not display any enemies you cannot actually see yourself. As it stands, you can see anyone your team sees, or has been TAG'd or NARC'd. This is a C3 function in my opinion.

So, part of the "overpowered" nature of of ECM has to be attributed to the fact that no one is wasting tonnage on C3 equipment. ECM might need work beside this, but I think it bears mentioning.

Second, we knew these new features (air strikes at least) were coming for some time. We ASSUMED they'd be tied to a leader ability or command console. Now they are an every-man-purchase item. This further erodes the benefit of a constant leader, and essentially means there is no real way to make Command Console equipment worth using unless they add in even MORE zany leader-only stuff (like being able to take command and set waypoints, or sensor powers, UAV, etc).

Third, ELO matches based on their "skill metrics" and not necessarily tonnage. Meaning, you can get paired against a Raven 3L while rocking your heavy. Or, you can get matched against FOUR RAVENS while your team has a mix of larger mechs. AND, it seems like the 8 player teams are still in a separate queue (correct me if I'm wrong). I thought one of the points of the ELO system was to allow these players more frequent competition by matching against pug groups of similar skill. This did not happen if I am correct, so the people who want a truly team based competitive scene are still segregated into a tiny queue.

The result of these if time goes on suggests that ECM will become even more common in the pug scene, 8 man teams will become even less popular, and there will be no real encouragement to step up and be a constant leader.

I was hoping for a system that would begin to subtly (or very bluntly) begin forcing the need for a leader who was ABLE TO LEAD, and gave that person benefits. I was hoping for a system where skill truly matched players, not a basic metric that still gives the light/ecm combo a major leg up.

In the end, we now have yet another feature set that will encourage deathmatch style thinking rather than team play.

Yeah, this is kind of a rambling thread isn't it?

[Windies]

This game is trying to turn Mechwarrior into the CoD/Counter-Strike of it's genre. It's sad because the mechanics, the IP and honestly everything about it are just not made for that style of game.

The only thing this game does for me is make me miss Mechcommander Gold and Mechwarrior GBL.

Edited by Windies, 04 March 2013 - 07:22 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Vermaxx, on 04 March 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

We already have the basic functions of C3 integrated into every mech.

Think about it - C3 lets mechs share targeting data. Meaning, by the most strict definitions of a Mechwarrior tech setting, your "radar" should not display any enemies you cannot actually see yourself. As it stands, you can see anyone your team sees, or has been TAG'd or NARC'd. This is a C3 function in my opinion.

It's not C3, it's an info-sharing capability that is inherent to every 'Mech.

From TechManual, pg. 39:
"The powers of a BattleMech’s sensory processors stand out most strongly in their ability to recognize other units and classify them by type and as friend or foe. Any T&T suite today can inform a MechWarrior of the type of unit it detects, and can even speculate on what variant it is, and the system is surprisingly intuitive. Sometimes, this can present an interesting effect, such as the famous example of the Inner Sphere naming of the Clan Timber Wolf OmniMech. Upon an Inner Sphere BattleMech’s first encounter with that ’Mech - which looked like a cross between the familiar Marauder and Catapult designs, the name “Mad Cat” was born. The ability to tell friend from foe - another key ability of the T&T suite - eases the burden of target identification for MechWarriors in the heat of battle, particularly under poor visibility conditions.

BattleMechs are also not islands unto themselves. They can share sensor data to some extent, allowing greater sensory performance than a single ’Mech can achieve. The specialized equipment of a C3 system takes this to new heights with direct battlefield applications, but all BattleMechs can at least receive basic sensory data from a unit mate."

By contrast:
"As much a revolution in battlefield technology as one of combat philosophy for its creators in the Draconis Combine, the system is essentially an elaborate tight-beam communications suite, designed to link the sensors and targeting systems of up to a full lance of friendly units in a single, closed network. The C3 system enables those within its network to draw targeting data from one another and coordinate fire with amazing ease. As long as effective weapon ranges and lines of fire permit, a member of a C3 network can essentially strike at a target with the same accuracy as the nearest friendly network member."
(TechManual, pg. 209)

C3 is simply a means for sharing more and better information (including, specifically, targeting and tracking information) with the other members of the same C3 network (which may, for example, include a single Lance (4-'Mech fire team) but not the whole Company (3-Lance unit)), but all 'Mechs canonically have the ability to share at least basic information with an allied unit (which is what's implemented in MWO currently).

[Noobzorz]

Not rambling at all. No need for the qualifier.

I'm not sure how to discuss this intelligently without making reference to this whole consumables thing being dumb (there, I failed just now), but this is a very good point you raise.

[anonymous175]

Maybe they'll come out with CFCM next to balance things out.

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

Target sharing in MW:O is actually more like playing a Double Blind game of Table Top. Since the "Player" controlling all his mechs can see all enemy units that are visible to his units, and move them accordingly.

C3 "Target sharing" in Table Top offers to-hit bonuses, which simply do not apply to a real-time game.

[Vrekgar]

Strum Wealh, on 04 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

By contrast:
"As much a revolution in battlefield technology as one of combat philosophy for its creators in the Draconis Combine, the system is essentially an elaborate tight-beam communications suite, designed to link the sensors and targeting systems of up to a full lance of friendly units in a single, closed network. The C3 system enables those within its network to draw targeting data from one another and coordinate fire with amazing ease. As long as effective weapon ranges and lines of fire permit, a member of a C3 network can essentially strike at a target with the same accuracy as the nearest friendly network member."
(TechManual, pg. 209)

C3 is simply a means for sharing more and better information (including, specifically, targeting and tracking information) with the other members of the same C3 network (which may, for example, include a single Lance (4-'Mech fire team) but not the whole Company (3-Lance unit)), but all 'Mechs canonically have the ability to share at least basic information with an allied unit (which is what's implemented in MWO currently).

Except the ability for LRMS to fire on targets that are lit up by allies, without direct LOS is something only C3 allowed for. The ability to pull down precise data on target states wasnt a basic function, its something made available by C3.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Thanks for yet again proving intellect exists. /pray

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 04 March 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Vrekgar, on 04 March 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Except the ability for LRMS to fire on targets that are lit up by allies, without direct LOS is something only C3 allowed for. The ability to pull down precise data on target states wasnt a basic function, its something made available by C3.

"Units armed with LRM-type weapons may fire those missiles indirectly. Indirect fire allows a unit without a direct line of sight to a target to attack that target, though a friendly unit must have a valid line of sight to the target (this unit is referred to as the spotter). An attacker with a valid LOS to a target cannot make an LRM indirect fire attack, even if that attack would have a better to-hit modifier." (Total Warfare, pg. 111)

"LRM Indirect Fire: C3-equipped units spotting targets for or launching an LRM indirect fire attack use the LRM Indirect Fire rules (see p. 111), and gain no benefit from a C3 network." (Total Warfare, pg. 131)

"TAG: The C3 Master (but not the C3 Slaves) exactly duplicates the function of target acquisition gear (see TAG; p. 142)." (Total Warfare, pg. 131)

Not only is indirect LRM fire a basic capability that is not dependent on C3, but C3's networking capability explicitly provides no benefit for attackers utilizing indirect fire.
That being said, the C3 Master can emulate a TAG unit, and can provide the same benefits as TAG with regard to target designation and spotting - meaning that TAG, by itself, can stand in for C3 in this scenario and perform on equal footing.

And neither TAG nor C3 are strictly necessary for making an indirect LRM attack, but having a spotter (which has inherent data-sharing capabilities, even without C3) with LOS to the target of the indirect LRM attack is needed.

[Omigir]