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A (Hopefully) More Constructive Approach To P2Wgate


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#1 ragingmunkyz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:21 AM

Mods, I would thank you to please not move this, I am actually attempting to accomplish something constructive and different from all the other threads out there right now about the upcoming changes. The rest of you, bear with me, this is a long one.

Mech Warriors, lend me your ears (eyes?). Something has happened today. Something which effected all of us alike, and something which I honestly think most of us will not stand for. I'd like to try to do something about it, rather than stand idly by (lets face it, forum whining is only a little more effort than that) once again as developers ignore their community and ruin a great franchise. Just to name a few, this happen to SWTOR, Diablo III, and WoT not that long ago, some of those are much bigger franchises, and they still fell apart because the devs ultimately failed the players and wouldn't listen to their suggestions. All of them lost a good deal of players after refusing to listen to the players about what needed to be in the game, and none of them have recovered. You don't get many chances in this business, and once the players leave, they rarely come back.

This is not a thread to complain and argue and post funny pictures and videos of animals and humans in varying states of displeasure. This is not a place for people to get angry any of the upcoming updates at all, except insofar as they represent a P2W scheme which could doom this game. Leave the complaints about how coolants and strikes will effect the games elsewhere, I'm concerned with the P2W bit only. In fact this really isn't much of a discussion at all. It's a petition. More than that, I encourage it to be a series of petitions.

I don't think PGI is listening. I think if they were, this sort of thing would not have happened in the first place. They promised, several times, that they would not go P2W and they just took the first step down that slippery slope. I don't think anyone will go through and read the megathread the mods have compiled of our feelings and complaints, in part because it is so long, and in part because it does not provide a coherent, constructive, rational point of view that they would even take seriously. I imagine someone will just mention at the next meeting, "so it wasn't a big hit on the forums," and then that'll be the end of it for them. They'll expect us to get over it, but if they keep doing more of this, we won't.

I intend to compose a series of letters/emails to send to PGI representing the voice of those members of the community who feel that the new "tiered consumable" system is at best a gateway to P2W and at worst an obvious cash-grab that immediately starts creating a P2W environment. I am asking you for your support, in the form of an impromptu petition. We have seen something like this, a small, paid-for advantage, eventually snowball into a P2W environment that ultimately drives players away from the game. Similarly, we have seen developers ignore community outcry only to lose their customer base and ultimately be left holding a bunch of great ideas that will never be realized.

My intent is to succinctly, calmly, and thoughtfully explain my position, and that of a significant portion of the community, and also to offer suggestions for the devs on more things we would be happy to pay for. I can already think of plenty of things that I would be more than happy to shell out the MC for, but as soon as it becomes about buying an advantage which cannot be earned no matter how much you grind, I lose all interest. This is a cancer to both the competitive (e-sport) aspect of the game as well as the casual part of the game. Neither form of the game will survive if they create a P2W environment. It alienates players, makes the competitive side a joke (Imagine someone winning an olympic medal because they paid the judges to give them 1 point higher on their scores). While the hope may be that this creates a situation where more players spend more money to keep up, those players much more often just leave. You simply cannot sustain a game the second you set a threshold that can only be crossed with real-world money.

Now, on the positive/constructive side, I have plenty of ideas, and I'd love to hear more ideas in this thread for ways to give PGI our money without sacrificing the integrity of this game. I realize a thread like this exists in suggestions, and I'll look there as well, but I want to add some positivity to this as well. I understand this is a business, I want them to make money, and I actually believe that there are better ways of making money because they encourage players to remain loyal. For example I want to encourage them to give a small universal C-bill %increase for the purchase of any MC, I'm thinking around 10%, it could even stack with premium/hero mechs. Most games do something like this, and it ensures that people will spend at least SOME money on the game. Then once they already have the MC anyways, they'll find something fun to buy with it, and this often encourages a player to find a few more things they wouldn't mind contributing a few more dollars for.

All of that said, I know this change hasn't even been implemented yet, and I don't want to jump the gun entirely, so I'm going to leave this thread up for a week or so, and see how the changes actually look and feel in the game. I doubt my opinion will be changed if you can pay for something which improves performance, but I want to base it on more than conjecture, so I'll give it a bit of time. I suggest you all do the same.

After your period of deliberation, I encourage anyone who feels as I do to hit the like button under this post, or to add their support with in the form of a response. If the list of names really gets going, I will create a more formal petition on one of those petition sites and link it here. I will also create a poll on the subject, but I didn't want to do that now, before the update was even released.

Feel free to make constructive, well-conceived points that you might like to see added to the final version of my letter. Any suggestion is welcomed. I also encourage others to start similar projects of their own, if they find themselves as passionate as I am about saving this game. I've simply seen too many great game ideas fall apart recently, and it has become clear that forum outrage has never helped in saving those other games. I'm just hoping that a well-reasoned, impassioned community response with a good deal of support might be enough to help PGI make this game into everything it has the potential to be.

Its likely just a drop in the ocean, but who knows...I don't lose anything other than a few hours by trying.

TL:DR?

I understand that this change has not yet been implemented, but it sounds very P2W, and the point is not how big an impact this one update makes, but the precedent it sets for more impactful P2W. I have played several MMO games in the past which fell apart either because of a P2W model (its starts like this, it gets much worse), or because devs failed to listen to their player base. In this case, I'm afraid of both happening; the game falling apart because the devs don't listen to the community, who don't want a P2W game.

I want to voice these concerns in an honest, well-reasoned letter to which I can attach a petition from the community, urging the devs to stay away from P2W options, and even offering them help in figuring out the stuff we will pay for. If you have a constructive suggestion with regards to this, please add it, if you'd like to become a part of the petition, please like this post or say so in a response. If I start getting enough names, I'll make a more formal petition for people to sign. Tell people to look for this post in the forum if you want to get more support for the idea.

Edited by ragingmunkyz, 05 March 2013 - 03:04 AM.


#2 Headlessnewt

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:34 AM

TL,DR.

I'm sure it's very well-written, well thought-out and might solve all the problems with MWO and possibly also cure at least two forms of cancer.

PGI doesn't care so long as they're making a profit. Save yourself the time and just stop playing if you want to make a statement. Here? You're lost in the noise, bro.

#3 El Bandito

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:38 AM

I like paying for this game and I like winning, but I don't like P2W.


Liking for effort.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 March 2013 - 01:46 AM.


#4 ragingmunkyz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:43 AM

I'm well aware that what happens here is lost in the noise, which is why I wrote in the "TL" bit that I intend to start a formal petition from players who want to save MWO from becoming P2W. A part of this would include suggestions on how to make a profit without sacrificing the integrity of the game.

I have saved myself the time and walked away so much recently, and its starting to get depressing. The state of MMOs is currently in flux, especially with f2p titles, because no one has really figured out how to profit without alienating large sections of their player base and in turn losing the potential profits of more players. A better way of communicating between developers and the community needs to be established, or we're just going to see more brilliant ideas fall short of greatness. I just want to feel like I tried at least once to do something about it.

#5 Moromillas

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 01:49 AM

I've said in a few threads now. If they do go the pay to win route, it's just not something I can get behind. The concern is that players can just use a credit card to win matches, rather than genuinely besting an opponent, it's dishonorable.

This might sound really nerdy, but hey. I would really like a statuette, of the Catapult C4 variant. I know there are other things like this, but I want the one that Piranha made. Not a little puny thing, well, not terrible huge either. Not sure about this thought, as I would be worried if it's somehow damaged in transport, especially since it might be shipped from the Americas.

#6 CrashieJ

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:02 AM

Delete Button, they will use it.


PGI is willing to destroy their own game at the expense of us to make a quick buck. If not from us, then the other players who don't inform themselves of this atrocity. This is P2W in a shrouded form.

I starting to not want to play this game any more and many people will too if PGI doesn't pull their heads out of their bu++s and start listening to the playerbase. WE WANT THIS GAME TO WORK

WE WANT A UNIFIED PERSISTANT UNIVERSE WHERE DEALS ARE MADE AND BROKEN BY PLAYERS, DECEIT AND DEATH LOOM EVERY CORNER AND THE VERY ALLIES YOU MAKE MAY IN FACT SELL YOU OUT TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER.

but we want these ideals in a videogame... not in real life...

PGI, your killing us, and if you keep doing this we'll have no choice but to pack up our toys and leave to another land where they do listen to the player base, where games are fair and careful, and where people can choose and have fun. You're just not hitting the mark because you're not letting us choose, and if you can't soon pull off a feat where things are balanced and where all players can get items with BOTH game-currency and Cash, even the most die-hard battletech fans WILL leave.

Edited by gavilatius, 05 March 2013 - 02:02 AM.


#7 Lagfest

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:24 AM

I just think its fishy that they closed the ASK THE DEVS 32 only like 45 min before they dropped this bomb on us...

/tin foil hat

They knew we would demand blood over this. But didn't want the ask the devs 32 to explode to another 40 pages.
money talks and bs walks...
Looks like we know what color leads this dev team.

-EDIT-
Realized my post sounds like I dislike this franchise, that's not true. It just miffs me that the game I was having so much fun playing looks to be headed down the WoT toilet.

Dont get me wrong, I love MW. But I dont want to be forced to play a inferior game just because thats my only choice.

Edited by Lagfest, 05 March 2013 - 02:27 AM.


#8 Budor

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:35 AM

View PostLagfest, on 05 March 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

Dont get me wrong, I love MW. But I wont be forced to play a inferior game just because thats my only choice.


Ninjad your post and fixed it for me to better resemble my stance on this.

If they go p2w its:
Posted Image

Edited by Budor, 05 March 2013 - 02:38 AM.


#9 MadPanda

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:44 AM

Can we get a TL;DR version? You might have some good ideas but I can't go through all that.

#10 John MatriX82

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:45 AM

Simply make that tier 3 modules need two module slots. Problem solved.

#11 Mr Mantis

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:51 AM

You seemed to be quite upset about something that has not been put in game yet ^_^. Take deep breaths and i think if you try to keep your forum posts to 3 paragraphs in the future you would get a better response. Also if you were to write a letter make sure it is quick, to the point, and positive, because the devs don't have lots of time to go over every little thing that people write or put in the forums. Hey look i am being constructive, unfortunately it is not in line with what you wrote about, but about what you wrote.

Okay let me try to be constructive since you put in all that time to make such a long post.
The problem they are running into directly is the pay model. I have always disliked the free to play model for various reasons (spammers, noobs, and pay to win to list some). This has been a big push in many areas due to the success of other free to play titles based out of Korea. The main reason they were so successful was only in part to the free to play setup, they also had a master sites that would pick up game titles and have them all in a hub location. This made it possible for people that would play those types of games to find many other games they could also play. Also having to make sure you have at least 5% player base paying is somewhat terrifying to me. Now it is much too late to change the pay model so they need to do this correctly. (btw the dev team knows all of this already)

If i were to write them i would want to include that it would be fine if MC could be spent on weaponry engines and ammo (more value to MC). Mech models as cockpit items, fuzzy dice would be good sellers, perhaps using MC to sport a custom faction logo but only if you get approval of the disign (people like genitalia for their emblems for some reason <_<). I am a little confused why they did not just made all 3 of the consumables purchasable with MC and cbills just have MC buy you some that last over multiple games, but the usefulness of the modules are still up in the air so i won't say any more about it till later.

#12 ragingmunkyz

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:38 AM

Added the much-requested TL:DR version. I apologize for the wall of text, but I tend to pontificate about such matters when I've been drinking scotch and something gets under my skin. Rest assured, I want to compose something much more succinct for the devs, though without sacrificing the vehemence or rationality of my arguments. If I seem overly concerned about a change that hasn't happened yet, its because I've witnessed the same sort of changes in other games, and I know all too well that they are just the first step on the path to "Gold weapons" bought with MC that do twice the damage and "Gold mechs" with the armor of an atlas and the speed of a commando. I'm sick of not saying anything when I see the cycle start again, because inevitably, these changes lead to me looking for something new to play in a few months. It makes me genuinely sad to see games with such incredible vision and potential get squandered because the devs didn't listen to the community and/or could not find a cost structure which was fair and did not allow anyone to "buy power."

There are just SO MANY ways to get us to pay money for random crap in a game like this, that they should in no way be wanting for money so much that we have to pay for performance. Here, I'll just spitball off the top of my head for a couple of minutes:

-I already gave the example that most good f2p games give you a small bonus just for spending any money at all. a 10% bonus to your c-bill and gxp rate just for spending $15.00 on MC means that most players will pay SOMETHING to get the most out of the game.
- Keep working with cosmetics like things in the cockpit and new paints/patterns/decals for mechs. Hell, make me pay to customize every button and screen in there to so it looks all my own. Make all the HUD stuff all bright pink and tint the glass.
- Let us customize the mechbay itself so we can display our mechs however we like.
- Make it so we can buy a custom voices for our mechs, maybe I want a dudes voice, or a lady with a french accent.
- Have a weekend competition with a 300 MC entry free, the winner of which gets a hero mech or gets to voice one of the computer voice options for the mech, or something like that.
- Let us customize the driver him/herself, maybe when I look down I want to see blue jeans, or camo fatigues, or a bikini. This could also just be a change to that boring default guy under your profile.
- Keep going with hero mechs, they're great without being better than what you can otherwise earn.
- When clans and factions come, add clan and faction skins for the interior of cockpits and the exterior of mechs themselves. - Add fitting celebration animations to the mechs for when you when a match that have to be bought.
- Custom laser colors would be cool, maybe people want purple lasers, or yellow, or whatever.
- Improve the inventory system, and put a cap on the inventory that can be increased by paying MC.
- an MC only salvage module that increases your salvage bonus after matches.
- a deal of the day or deal of the week, put something on sale for a limited time and people are sure to buy it, ALWAYS WORKS in every game I've seen do this.
- make us pay for custom mech names, and display those names with our mechs on the scoreboards
- custom reticles when aiming
- limited time xp/c-bill boosters. I know there is premium time, but some people who wouldn't pay for that would pay a little just to boost their time for a weekend when they know they'll play a lot.
- sell us real life stuff, t-shirts, models of the hero mechs, a book of mech concept art
- different sets of arms or legs or different looking guns on mechs.
- shared storage space for clans and factions and such
- allow people to pay mc for mech parts as well as mechs
- start new players with 2 mech bays instead of 4? I mean I know I want more than 4, but 4 may be enough for some

This is just off the top of my head right now, but the point is there are a TON of ways to get us to spend money without making the game P2W. I can already think of a bunch more depending on how factions and clans get implemented. This isn't that hard, they have not even come close to running out of viable things to make us spend money on, and the game is still in beta after all...





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