15 replies to this topic

[Thuzel]

LRM's felt much more effective after the patch, so I decided to run some quick tests:

With a single LRM15, testing grounds frozen city night, 300 meters to all targets, No assistance equipment, both mechs facing each other:

COM-1B
- Volley 1: removed LA LT RA RT, removed all armor from CT, Yellow internal CT
- Volley 2: Dead

CN9-A
- Volley 1: Yellow armor LT RT CT LL RL
- Volley 2: Removed armor CT, Yellow internal CT
- Volley 3: Orange armor LA LT RA RT RL LL, Orange Internal CT
- Volley 4: Dead

AWS-8Q
- Volley 1: Yellow armor RT LT, Orange armor CT
- Volley 2: Removed armor from CT LT, Yellow internal CT LT
- Volley 3: Red Internal CT LT
- Volley 4 Dead

Something is definitely going on here. It's supposed to be only 27 points of damage a volley, but the tests are indicating much more damage than that being done.

Unless the mechs populating the test grounds have significantly reduced armor and internal values, the damage values are definitely off. But they do seem to respond properly to other weapons, so they seem to be correctly armored.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

You didnt knew you can kill Commando with 2xLRM15?I did it a few times even in CB.He just ram into building I fire LRMs and then he die.It is bcuz if target move then there is no chance to all missiles can hit.

I see them exactly like it was be4 patch.At least w/o artemis.I do not use Artemis on any of my mechs.

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 05 March 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

They're probably default mechs, which do often have terrible armor.

[megoblocks]

Yeah I just tried a lrm10 against a commando, albeit with artemis installed. First volley took off the right torso, red on ct and lt, some little damage here and there on other components. Second volley killed it. 1 LRM 20 volley (no artemis) almost killed the commando in a separate test (shaved off both sides, no ct kill). 1 lrm20 volley on the cicada orange LT internal and orange ct/rt/ct rear armor. Does seem a little more buffed now, damage wise.

edit: take it back, shot up the atlas next with single lrm20 volleys and he took a pounding. Stock lights must really have crappy armor

Edited by megoblocks, 05 March 2013 - 04:41 PM.

[Stingz]

Artemis + TAG has terrifying efficiency, LRMs might need a (slight) damage reduction with the new flight patterns. Though ECM is still a powerful counter to even it out.

Edited by Stingz, 05 March 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[GrizzlyViking]

No way to figure crits into the mix since they are random, but given crits and crappy armor loadouts on stock Mechs I think the results are standard.

Edited by GrizzlyViking, 05 March 2013 - 07:07 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Probably stock so you can get armor values from MechLab, watch the damage you do and make a good guess math wise about how much you remove from an area.

[Stingz]

Royalewithcheese, on 05 March 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

They're probably default mechs, which do often have terrible armor.

Do testing on the Atlas-D then, almost-max armour (2 points away). It gets torn up badly from Artemis LRMs.

Edited by Stingz, 05 March 2013 - 08:00 PM.

[Vashramire]

Most mechs in testing zone stock armor is insanely low. 2 Commando variants have only 96 armor total, 12 of which is the CT. Atlas is your best bet for damage tests. Even the Awesome in it I can core in 2 dual LRM15 volleys.

Edited by Vashramire, 05 March 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Ravennus]

As others have mentioned, the armor on most of the stock mechs in the training grounds are really REALLY low.

Also, please consider that all these mechs are standing completely still.
If a mech is moving and also liking twisting around, some LRMs will miss or scatter damage around the components instead of focusing on one section.

This is especially true for light mechs running 150kph. In an actual game, using TAG and Artemis with a Commando in full LOS.... it takes me MUCH more than 1 or two salvos of LRM15 to destroy it if it is running full speed. Many of the missiles miss because of their high speed.


Please test in real games before calling for a nerf.

I've done so, and finally found that Artemis is actually worth taking... for both LRMs and SRMs.
Also remember that Artemis requires LOS, and is also very picky on what "LOS" means.
I've TAGed enemies and been able to see them, but still didn't get the Artemis effect, which is unfortunate.

Edited by Ravennus, 05 March 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[Hammer Hands]

Ravennus, on 05 March 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I've done so, and finally found that Artemis is actually worth taking... for both LRMs and SRMs.
Also remember that Artemis requires LOS, and is also very picky on what "LOS" means.
I've TAGed enemies and been able to see them, but still didn't get the Artemis effect, which is unfortunate.

This might actually be a bug worth inspecting more.

[Lentil]

Artemis appears to significantly reduce the spread on both LRMs and SRMs. This is, in fact, what the devs said it would do.

Unfortunately, I find the concentration to single locations to be over the top. We now have a situation where laser weapons spread damage and missile weapons concentrate it. This seems backwards to me, but is ultimately arbitrary.

Particularly at short range with SRMs, some kind of background damage reduction is badly needed. I applaud the desire for 'realistic' physics on the weapons, but when all the shots come _out_ of a single area on the mech, they correspondingly _hit_ a single area on the target. Lasers don't work this way, since the damage is applied over time as the target moves. Ballistics might work this way, but because you simply can't stack as many on a single mech they don't get abused the same way. For example, compare the "Firepower" score of an SRM based TBT with a 2 UAC/5 TBT. With Aretmis, the effective range at which this occurs is extended. I was watching my SRMs 'converge' at certain distances to brutal effect.

Vashramire, on 05 March 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

Most mechs in testing zone stock armor is insanely low. 2 Commando variants have only 96 armor total, 12 of which is the CT. Atlas is your best bet for damage tests. Even the Awesome in it I can core in 2 LRM15 volleys.

Take your 12 points CT and something like 6-8 points elsewhere. There is also some quantity of internal structure in each of those locations. The OP said that a single LRM-15 (27 points of damage) _removed_ 4 different locations AND stripped the armor from the CT.
12+6+6+6+6 = 36 points, not counting the internal structure.
Yes, that seems rather like an incorrect accounting. On the order of 2x the damage that should be occurring.

Edited by Lentil, 05 March 2013 - 08:58 PM.

[Vashramire]

Lentil, on 05 March 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Take your 12 points CT and something like 6-8 points elsewhere. There is also some quantity of internal structure in each of those locations. The OP said that a single LRM-15 (27 points of damage) _removed_ 4 different locations AND stripped the armor from the CT.
12+6+6+6+6 = 36 points, not counting the internal structure.
Yes, that seems rather like an incorrect accounting. On the order of 2x the damage that should be occurring.

Actually I just looked up the exact model stock and it's a little more armored but still way easy to pop in a volley or 2 of 15's. 24 damage to CT to kill and 18 to either side torso to rip off arms and said torsos plus if the dummy mech actually has the SRM ammo with no case and that pops too. But it's just cannon fodder so I doubt it really matters. Any light that is stationary, no matter how much armor it has is going to die extremely fast.

Edited by Vashramire, 05 March 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Lentil, on 05 March 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

Particularly at short range with SRMs, some kind of background damage reduction is badly needed. I applaud the desire for 'realistic' physics on the weapons, but when all the shots come _out_ of a single area on the mech, they correspondingly _hit_ a single area on the target. Lasers don't work this way, since the damage is applied over time as the target moves. Ballistics might work this way, but because you simply can't stack as many on a single mech they don't get abused the same way. For example, compare the "Firepower" score of an SRM based TBT with a 2 UAC/5 TBT. With Aretmis, the effective range at which this occurs is extended. I was watching my SRMs 'converge' at certain distances to brutal effect.

Yeah. Honestly I really like the Artemis effect (it makes it actually worth taking and changes up the SRM mechanics in a interesting way) but SRMs should probably do 2 damage each now.

[Joker Two]

I ran similar tests, but when I realized how fast I was destroying targets, tried just about everything I could to increase my own missile spread. Details are here (I think, I don't usually post links): http://mwomercs.com/...67#entry2011667 but in summary LRMs are incredibly tightly grouped even when dumb-fired, and are dealing a ridiculous amount of damage, even when I try my hardest to increase the spread of my own volleys.

[Ravennus]

Try not to read too much into how capable LRMs are VS test targets.


Please take them out in the wild, and try firing them.

The first thing you should notice is that many of the missiles MISS or spread across the target in an actual firefight scenario.
The only time you see mostly concentrated damage is with Artemis and only if the target is standing perfectly still and you are facing them directly.

Otherwise LRMs seem to actually be hitting moving targets less than before, though I admit this could just be anecdotal perception (something I'm seeing a lot in these threads).

With my Trenchbucket, I've fired 2x Artemis LRM15s at more than a few high speed Commandos, Ravens and other mechs.
More than once, even though I was within 300m and had them TAGed and in LOS for Artemis, they were able to actually outrun and outmaneuver ALL my missiles.
According to the targeting info, nothing hit. No AMS, just them moving very quickly and turning at the right times.

Yes, LRMs work much better against slower targets.... but even against a slow-azz big Atlas, they would still have a couple missiles miss if they were moving at all... and they are easily able to spread the damage around by torso twisting.


Summary: LRMs are at a nice spot right now. Artemis is FINALLY doing something that is possibly worth all the extra money, tonnage and cbills.

If you are still getting destroyed by LRMs, take the usual advice.
Find cover. Keep moving. Utilize ECM. etc