128 replies to this topic

[EvangelionUnit]

the best way again ECM mechs is legging, i know most people don't like it, but its my favorit way to take them down, and the fastest, as soon as on leg is gone the show is over in noo time, to bad that the most people don't know this or aren't willing to help their team with legging these bugs ...

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

It's best because Streaks are the best weapons for a Light Mech. If you don't have any, you're basically deadweight. 3L gets the most Streaks. ECM is even more OP, yet for some reason they stacked ECM on top of Streaks. So now there basically a food chain...

Top - ECM+Streaks
Next - Streaks
Gutter - Neither

That right there, that little table, determines every Light vs Light fight outcome. The guy with Streaks WILL win vs the guy without, and the guy with ECM+Streaks WILL win vs the guy with no ECM. There's no balance in sight. This is what happens when you attempt to balance weapons entirely around a separate device that not everyone can use. Streaks should have been balanced entirely on their own, without it revolving around ECM or no ECM.

[Excalibaard]

The Raven is imbalanced because it simply combines the strengths of ECM and streaks in one 150 kph light mech with good hardpoints.

ECM is just as annoying, but counterable on larger mechs. Larger mechs can be hit by ppc´s to temporarily shut it down. Good luck hitting a fullspeed raven pilot with PPC's, that takes much more skill, which I frankly, along with many other casual players, don´t have.
The counter to these superfast light mechs are the bloody annoying streak SRMs that reduce light torso´s to rubble in a few seconds. However, unless you pack a TAG, which takes up an energy slot, therefore removing your firepower, you're unable to use these. This means you'll have to fully rely on lasers and the heat that that costs + the damage spread is simply not efficient enough to completely kill/counter them.
Basically, you can counter the ECM with ECM, so to win from a 3L you need a 3L or maybe a Cicada if that's more your style (though cicada will be outrun). Commando's are likely to die due to the Raven's superior armor and firepower

The Raven needs to be fixed. make it easier to hit by removing the unfair engine advantage, preferably also change how ECM works. Don't completely remove missile lock, just make it hella slow, and have NARC/TAG assist in speeding up the lock. at least you'll be able to use your own streaks and missile support against them.


Btw original poster, you can't fit two SRM6's on a 3L, unless you really want one of them to fire 6 salvo's. the slot that's originallyfor the NARC beacon has only one tube.

Edited by SubjectSeven, 10 March 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Bluten, on 10 March 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's best because Streaks are the best weapons for a Light Mech. If you don't have any, you're basically deadweight. 3L gets the most Streaks. ECM is even more OP, yet for some reason they stacked ECM on top of Streaks. So now there basically a food chain...

Top - ECM+Streaks
Next - Streaks
Gutter - Neither

That right there, that little table, determines every Light vs Light fight outcome. The guy with Streaks WILL win vs the guy without, and the guy with ECM+Streaks WILL win vs the guy with no ECM. There's no balance in sight. This is what happens when you attempt to balance weapons entirely around a separate device that not everyone can use. Streaks should have been balanced entirely on their own, without it revolving around ECM or no ECM.

You forgot ECM-only (which is currently only the Spider 5D), which is about even with Streaks-only, in terms of light vs. light. Because you can negate streaks, and they don't have ECM to counter yours, you end up having similar, if not better firepower. If I have 3xMPL, and they have 2xSSRM and 2xML, my ECM tilts things in my favour. Of course, if they use SRMs instead, they still have the advantage, assuming a skilled/lucky pilot.

[EvangelionUnit]

Sable Dove, on 10 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

You forgot ECM-only (which is currently only the Spider 5D), which is about even with Streaks-only, in terms of light vs. light. Because you can negate streaks, and they don't have ECM to counter yours, you end up having similar, if not better firepower. If I have 3xMPL, and they have 2xSSRM and 2xML, my ECM tilts things in my favour. Of course, if they use SRMs instead, they still have the advantage, assuming a skilled/lucky pilot.

if the other with ECM cancel yours how are you shilded again SSRM ?

[Sable Dove]

EvangelionUnit, on 10 March 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

if the other with ECM cancel yours how are you shilded again SSRM ?

What other with ECM? I said ECM-only is about equal to Streaks-only. Meaning that they have streaks and no ECM, while I have ECM, but no streaks.

[Voyager I]

Bluten, on 10 March 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's best because Streaks are the best weapons for a Light Mech. If you don't have any, you're basically deadweight. 3L gets the most Streaks. ECM is even more OP, yet for some reason they stacked ECM on top of Streaks. So now there basically a food chain...

Top - ECM+Streaks
Next - Streaks
Gutter - Neither

That right there, that little table, determines every Light vs Light fight outcome. The guy with Streaks WILL win vs the guy without, and the guy with ECM+Streaks WILL win vs the guy with no ECM. There's no balance in sight. This is what happens when you attempt to balance weapons entirely around a separate device that not everyone can use. Streaks should have been balanced entirely on their own, without it revolving around ECM or no ECM.

Indeed, but the problem has a lot more to do with Streaks than with ECM. If Streaks weren't the deciding factor in light fights, ECM wouldn't be nearly the problem it is now because you wouldn't need it to be competitive.

ThadiusTheThird, on 10 March 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Mechs should be balanced this is called UNbalance when one mech can clearly obliterate another mech. I could understand it he was the Cat-A1 with nothing but LRMs but stalkers do have quite a few back up weapons. Light mechs already have the role of scouting and electronic warfare they should not have the ability to win a 1 on 1 fight hands down with an assault or heavy mech. The mechwarrior I use to know light mechs feared heavy mechs not heavier mechs running in fear. Its for good cause too a light mech who was skilled would avoid heavy mechs and learn to help his team fight them. In this game when I drive a light mech I can pretty much run in and kill whatever mech I want, light mechs being my only competition.

If you think slow mechs designed to fight at long range shouldn't have problems with fast mechs designed to fight at close range because you dropped in a heavier chassis or that different mechs having different roles and are capable of taking advantage of each others strengths and weaknesses is a bad thing then you probably should have paid attention to the last year or so of game design explanation we've been receiving.

Saying that light mechs are unbalanced because they killed an LRM boat up close makes about as much sense as saying that LRMs are unbalanced because you tried to run directly across the lake at one and died.

Edited by Voyager I, 10 March 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[DeathsScythe]

Voyager I, on 10 March 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

If you think slow mechs designed to fight at long range shouldn't have problems with fast mechs designed to fight at close range because you dropped in a heavier chassis or that different mechs having different roles and are capable of taking advantage of each others strengths and weaknesses is a bad thing then you probably should have paid attention to the last year or so of game design explanation we've been receiving.

Saying that light mechs are unbalanced because they killed an LRM boat up close makes about as much sense as saying that LRMs are unbalanced because you tried to run directly across the lake at one and died.

You my good sir are not understanding what I am saying. I said that obviously a LRM boat would get killed by a light mech thus my reference to the Cat-A1. However when it comes to a heavy or assualt mech with plenty of close range weapons fighting a light mech there is a clear advantage for the light mech. What you are proposing is that there is no need for heavy or assualt mechs that everyone should just drive light mechs. Which that won't happen and that's a good thing.

Edited by ThadiusTheThird, 10 March 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Drakenn]

Headlessnewt, on 08 March 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Personally, I think the big problem with the 3L isn't its loadout, it's the top speed.

Speed is life to a Light, and the other Ravens are slow. Put the 3L down where the other Ravens are and it'll cease to be a problem.

exactly this.

[Tuonela]

I'm mostly a Jenner pilot, my issue has never really been ECM, its purely streaks. If I meet a commando or Raven with streaks, I'm dead. They go the same speed, I can't outrun them. Auto-hit+decent damage destroys a Jenner quickly, its very difficult to win in a stand up fight. The lock on speed is so quick running around buildings isn't much help since they'll just relock immediately.

I'm not happy with ECM, but it just excaserbates the bigger issue, which is the only near guaranteed hit weapon in the game, streaks. Just image what'll happen if they put in streak 4s or 6s? Currently there is literally NO DEFENSE against streaks in a light on light fight. THere is absolutely nothing you can do except try to run away, which usually won't work (sometimes you get a lucky obstacle over which you can JJ or enough friendly fire to cover you).

A raven without streaks would be MUCH less scary to everyone, without streaks a Jenner vs Raven fight would be exactly even.

Anyway, here are some of my ideas for making streaks more balanced:

1) Wire guided rather than lock on - Require holding your reticule on target the entire time, requires some skill, still guided and useful.

or

2) Increase lock on time - currently too short. Make it more difficult to maintain lock in close up knife fights.

3) Only allow line of sight targeting, lock is lost immediately upon losing LOS.

[Corvus Antaka]

ssrms are the problem. if the 3L had only 1 missile hardpoint none of this would be an issue.

[That Dawg]

Mawai, on 06 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I'm surprised this one hasn't been posted yet.

That made me laff

edit: at the risk of the bovine obvious, why not get teh evul scout vs. stick with inferior rides?
I played the original version, and my first mech upon arriving was drop real cash, and buy a blinged Jenner...wth...what a mistake that was.
Its a GAME, the tactics of the USER are about all that can be controlled.
Either sit in a mech that is poorly balanced, gets tattered all the time, or join the ranks till they fix it.
Didn't take me that long to figure out you have to have a DDC and a 3L to play pugs alone.
Pour your love into what works.

Edited by ThatDawg, 12 March 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[DanielZX]

Yes I agree than raven is unbalanced, several times I oneshoted COM-2D by AC-20 but NEVER ever was able to take down raven with less then 5 or 6 hits of AC20. Do anyone have information about EXECT mech proportions? Not drawings but exect height,width,leg length and etc? We definitly need this information to check propper proportions of every mech in game

[Neput Z34]

they only way i can think of how to fight a Raven 3L with streaks 1 vs.1 in a light mech is to:

USE vertical trerain elevation, ie run back and forth over the crater/ ridge on Caustic Valey, timeing is everythig. What you are trying to do is to limit your time exposure so he can't get a lock with streaks, but to do that you need to be just as fast with better heat efficency then a said 3L and SRMs to hit them in the back once they overheat.

Also can fight him in a city where there are alot of cover that you can doge in and out of to negate some streak damage.

NEVER fight a Raven 3L out in the open where they have clear line of sight to maintain lock.

Basicly even if you do everythig right, you still will probaly die to a 3L just not as fast as fighting him out in the open.

Edited by Neput Z34, 12 March 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Tom Denhollander]

I pilot a hunchie and honestly when i use my 9 ML alpha on a raven with the beam held on it for the whole damn time, the armor turns yellow. Just yellow. I can core a commando with that alpha yet to a raven for whatever reason does not very much. The hitbox seems absolutely borked and combine that with the ssrm and ecm issues, this mech can outclass heavies and what sort of balance is that honestly.

Fix this damn mechs hitbox, ecm and streaks are an issue but i believe the bigger issue is the damn hitbox.

[John MatriX82]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 March 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

ssrms are the problem. if the 3L had only 1 missile hardpoint none of this would be an issue.

If devs had given to the JR7-D ecm capability, we'd all be debating that both those lights were OP, but at least there could have been some more variety than seeing 3L, 3L 3L everywhere as it is now.

The problem are the streaks, add ECM on one of the fastest lights and the mess is done. No other light is viable, Cidada 3M, Com 2D, Spider 5D.. they are all leveled to the ground when 3Ls are around.

[UberFubarius]

Tom Denhollander, on 13 March 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

I pilot a hunchie and honestly when i use my 9 ML alpha on a raven with the beam held on it for the whole damn time, the armor turns yellow. Just yellow. I can core a commando with that alpha yet to a raven for whatever reason does not very much. The hitbox seems absolutely borked and combine that with the ssrm and ecm issues, this mech can outclass heavies and what sort of balance is that honestly.

Fix this damn mechs hitbox, ecm and streaks are an issue but i believe the bigger issue is the damn hitbox.

Where are you hitting the 3L? On the side? Look at the picture on the first page of this thread. You can see that from the side, you're actually hitting the CT and either RT/LT most of the time.

[Headlessnewt]

So really, the 3L (and I think we all know this) is a conflux of a number of issues:

1) ECM meaning the standard anti-light weapon (Streaks) doesn't work on them

2) Missile Hardpoints, meaning they can take the standard anti-light weapon (making them the premier light mech killers)

3) Extremely high speed, one of the highest in the game, means that hitting them with other weapons is difficult

So basically, they're very difficult to hit with absolutely every weapon. No wonder they never die.

[DEMAX51]

IrrelevantFish, on 08 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Actually, a fresh JR7-F will beat a fresh RVN-3L one-on-one. Streak damage is spread out, no matter how awesome you are, but a highly skilled pilot can focus the damage from beam weapons on a single location, and the JR7-F has six to the RVN-3L's three.

I'm sorry, but this is just straight up wrong. Not to sound too arrogant, but I'm an excellent Jenner pilot, and I'm damn good with lasers too, but I will still get taken out by a mediocre Raven pilot in a 1v1 more than half the time. And any kind of competent pilot can roll their torso so as to make repeatedly targeting a side-torso, and holding that side-torso for the duration of a beam weapon, very very difficult even for seasoned players.

Your point about SSRM damage being spread around the 'Mech is not fully accurate, either. Yes, streaks hit different parts of a 'Mech each time, but they also do splash damage to all nearby components. This means, whether the streak hits an arm, side torso, or center torso, that a side torso is going to take some damage from every single impact, and side torsos are the weakest spot on a light mech.

To reiterate my earlier post, I don't think the Raven needs drastic changes. Minor nerfs (along with fixes to the bugs regarding the Raven's hitboxes and damage not being attributed properly) should fix things.

Edited by DEMAX51, 15 March 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[IrrelevantFish]

DEMAX51, on 15 March 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but this is just straight up wrong.

Unfortunately, you're absolutely right: 3Ls really do have the advantage over 7F's, even at very high skill levels. I apologize for my error. I hadn't run a JR7-F or watched anyone else pilot one since the advent of the Elo system, so my perceptions were skewed.

You are also right about Streaks and the difficulty of focusing damage, but the results of my hit-box research suggest that twisting the torso with a 3L may actually be worse at spreading damage than simply facing the damage head on, or maybe just waggling a little.

DEMAX51, on 15 March 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

To reiterate my earlier post, I don't think the Raven needs drastic changes. Minor nerfs (along with fixes to the bugs regarding the Raven's hitboxes and damage not being attributed properly) should fix things.

Here, I think you might be wrong. We'll have to see what happens after splash damage is turned off and they debug hit detection, but I suspect the 3L will still be OP. It's almost as fast as a Jenner, can pack nearly the same amount of punch, and is significantly more durable even without ECM.

My solution? Remove the Streak-proofing effect of ECM and/or reduce the maximum engine rating a bit, maybe to something like 280.

And while they're at it, why not give the 2X and 4X a much-needed boost and let them run 280's, too.