32 replies to this topic

[Grrzoot]

So after the **** storm has calmed down, had time to think, and after reading your own post i had my own little epiphany.

I never liked f2p games because somehow, somewhere it always seems that they go into selling something, not for the good of the game, but for the good of making money. All that aside this was a concern i always had:

I used to raid a lot, wow,rift,EQ when i was a younger man and had more time. Now these were all subscription based games, the game world was set, the items were set, all characters could theoretically be exactly the same at the highest tier. The only things you could get to make your character better than X character was gear and pots. This was their grind. The only way to get the best set gear (not talking pvp here) was to RAID, to Raid you needed to farm pots- we had groups of people who would contribute to a material pool, certain crafters who would make the items etc. To do that, you needed to get on for hours per week to farm for mats, to make the pots, so that you even had a chance of beating mr x boss. This was how they kept people involved in the game, how they separated the hardcore raiders from the casuals (we aren't going to get into that) yadda yadda. Eventually, in all the games i stopped raiding because, well farming mats wasn't any fun, and if i didn't do my ten hours of farming well, i didn't go that week and eventually got outgeared- you see the issue.

Anyway, back on point. I wondered, in a game like this where the initial investment is so low, and once you buy something you have it forever (mechs, weapons, etc) Eventually the grind completely disappears, eventually people stop playing on off days because there is nothing else to work for (who we called raid loggers in mmo's) and only show up for training and command drops.
But where is the grind, the need to play to make sure that you can be competitive, where were they going to put this all important factor into this game? The need to keep people involved, keep them logging in etc.

I think this is where that begins, i think the mc price is just right - hey man didn't have time to get on this week to grind for my 8 arty strikes and probe droids or repair station, just pop down a buck and i am good to go. I am ok with that, it lets people exchange time for money, and the things they want to add are going to add to our gameplay, they are going to be things we want/need/like to use for competitive drops and i am ok with that too. I don't mind dropping a buck here or there if i don't have time to farm some c-bills.

The question is implementation- make them all equal, i don't see why there should be any difference at all. If at the end of the day all things are equal, the secret to stay away from p2w is to make the c-bill vers/mc versions identical. But the only way i see that being successfull is that the c-bill prices need to come up. You want coolant flushes, please go grind 20 matches without to have enough for 6 or 8 or something like that, you have to make the money worth the time.

So don't make them different, make them the same, make the difference the cost in time vs. money.

[Hann Solo]

This is what needs to be done. The non-grinders are the only ones going to spend MC anyway and we will definately by these anyway. Take away the whiner Pay2Win crowds excuses. I'm going to buy everything with MC because I hate to grind but if people want to grind away, let them, don't punish them by making the items different. As I said, all of us that were going to spend MC still will and those that weren't still wont.

[Buckminster]

+1

[Budor]

Grrzoot, on 06 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

So don't make them different, make them the same, make the difference the cost in time vs. money.

100 FKNG TIMES THIS! Anyone saying something else is a bad, doesnt like pie and cant lick his own elbow.

Good game design is about interesting choices on a even ground for everyone. Current design is an epic fail!

Edited by Budor, 06 March 2013 - 07:07 AM.

[Heeden]

I think getting all the C-bills consumable (s+m flush, airstrike, artillery) will only cost you about 40k which is less than a match even if you lose.

For the people who are saying they should be the same, which model should they use?

Personally I lean towards wanting the C-bill versions anyway, so should they remove the MC versions and start charging it for the C-bill ones or vice-versa?

Edited by Heeden, 06 March 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Voridan Atreides]

I guess I'm not a fan of the idea of consumables. Either take Coolant Flush away or make it an upgrade? I know that won't happen.

[EmeraldSongbird]

This is not an MMORPG, you play for the sake of fun and fighting in a mech, which is a unique experience. In MMORPGs you strive to be the best, get the best crap and by skill and gear calculation you are a "good player". This game requires skill and every mech has an Achilles' Heel. Do not compare the two MMO types, they are different. Now you state that these consumables give the player an unfair advantage. I understand that you are saying everyone should be able to grind them out but grind is a nasty word. I don't want to grind to get an advantage, I want an advantage based on my own skill. That is where the issue lies. If I start grinding for everything I lose interest in the game rather than enjoying the game itself. It puts player focus on being the best than playing for fun. When you are the best because you grind all your crap, MMORPGs are not really fun anymore, I don't want that here.

I agree your point is valid though, don't get me wrong. Though I may be missing the point entirely. I went off on a rant.

Edited by Doobles, 06 March 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Grrzoot]

Heeden, on 06 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

I think getting all the C-bills consumable (s+m flush, airstrike, artillery) will only cost you about 40k which is less than a match even if you lose.

For the people who are saying they should be the same, which model should they use?

Personally I lean towards wanting the C-bill versions anyway, so should they remove the MC versions and start charging it for the C-bill ones or vice-versa?

I don't think it really matters, just pick one with one specific effect.

[Yokaiko]

Grrzoot, on 06 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

I think this is where that begins, i think the mc price is just right - hey man didn't have time to get on this week to grind for my 8 arty strikes and probe droids or repair station, just pop down a buck and i am good to go. I am ok with that, it lets people exchange time for money, and the things they want to add are going to add to our gameplay, they are going to be things we want/need/like to use for competitive drops and i am ok with that too. I don't mind dropping a buck here or there if i don't have time to farm some c-bills.

This is a game breaker

Grrzoot, on 06 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

So don't make them different, make them the same, make the difference the cost in time vs. money.

If they were it wouldn't be an issue, except they aren't they are substantially different.


Also from a former raider going to back to EQ...pre Kunarch and one time member of a 25 rated WoW raiding guild.

Edited by Yokaiko, 06 March 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Michael Costanza]

To be fair, on games like EQ, once you got to a certain/max level, you could always buy items with real cash instead of grinding.

[Heeden]

Grrzoot, on 06 March 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

I don't think it really matters, just pick one with one specific effect.

I prefer it the way it is now, with C-bills seeming superior I like the idea of people paying-to-lose.

[Budor]

Heeden, on 06 March 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

For the people who are saying they should be the same, which model should they use?

All 3. Intersting choices.

1. cheap and 1 slot
2. not so cheap still 1 slot
3. 1+2 not cheap at all but lots off cooling and 2 uses
4. wow this is horribly overpriced but i get the same cooling as option 3 but save 1 slot which i could use to...

Edited by Budor, 06 March 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Viper69]

The whole premise of MC and other cash currencies in other ftp games was just a convenience to get something faster or get a cosmetic thing. Look at our standard mechs as an example. You can grind the 13 mil for an atlas or drop some MC to buy it, it still the same atlas you just got it a different way. If they implement consumables it needs to be the same way not turn into world of tanks with mechs.

[Thirdstar]

Doobles, on 06 March 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

This is not an MMORPG, you play for the sake of fun and fighting in a mech, which is a unique experience. In MMORPGs you strive to be the best, get the best crap and by skill and gear calculation you are a "good player". This game requires skill and every mech has an Achilles' Heel. Do not compare the two MMO types, they are different.

This is an utterly ridiculous argument. There are legions of MMORPG players who play for fun, who don't min-max and don't have the best gear and there are select people who play MWO as serious business. who care very much about the best mech builds and about winning.

What kind of silly generalization is this?

[EmeraldSongbird]

Thirdstar, on 06 March 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

This is an utterly ridiculous argument. There are legions of MMORPG players who play for fun, who don't min-max and don't have the best gear and there are select people who play MWO as serious business. who care very much about the best mech builds and about winning.

What kind of silly generalization is this?

I'm not saying there aren't people who play MMORPGs for fun, but never have I ever met a person playing one who never wanted to get definitely better and better gear to be a better player because that is the only way they could be. I'm referring to this as a shooter where you could get whatever you want, but how you utilize what you have makes the game worth playing, not simply having this or having that which would include all these special modules. They make you definitely better and if I have to grind them to stand a chance against any MC users or die-hard MWO players, what fun is there? I personally would get sick of keeping up, it is a fix but it still offers problems for casual players.

Edited by Doobles, 06 March 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Lupin]

My GOD a cool headed look at consumables.
What else are we spending Cbills on at the moment after match, we have no repair or re-arm.
Not play to win if everyone has access to them.

But someone has to pay for somethings DEV and servers need paying.

[Terror Teddy]

Yes, very much this.

ANY kind of advantage to paying cash for something that is BETTER than the exact same thing you can get ingame is paying to win - if not at least paying for an advantage against an exactly similar player with the same gear.

Hell, if they decided EVERYTHING could be accessed through MC like weapons and mech's I'd have no problem with it as long as it is only a choice between:

-TIME
-MONEY

Sure, those who pay dont have to grind but the moeny goes to get more assets to the game and those who grind get more XP during their grind than those who take the easy way.

Both sides will die the same way.

Lupin, on 06 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

But someone has to pay for somethings DEV and servers need paying.

True, the question is only what to make avialable and make sure it does not give a clear straight in-game combat advantage.

As I said in my post, I'd have no problem getting guns and equipment for C-bills as long as they are the same as what can be bought in-game cbills.

We basically already have an MC/C-bill exchange rate so the pricing can be done.

250 MC / USD
2500 CB / MC

[Righ]

I see your point, but MWO is a bit different from your typical "grindan game". After I have everything I want, I'll still be playing. I don't get online every day just to grind for more c-bills. True, I am trying to save up for several different 'mech chassis right now, but I play the game itself because it is fun.

A F2P game has to have another way of making money because, believe it or not, servers cost money to run. PGI is paying money to allow us all to play together. Why do you think subscription fees exist? They pay for maintanence and upkeep. True, a game like WoW could easily drop the fee or at least lower it at this point and still have boatloads of money, but MWO cannot afford to go without another source of money.

Currently, purchasing 'mechs and cosmetic changes with Mech Credits is a good way to go. I'll admit, I've already spent an extra 30 bucks on MC because I love this game, I love buying 'mechs and camo specs, and I love PGI so I want to support them. The problem we will run into is with the "consumables", which brings advantage to whoever can afford it, whereas with 'mech and cosmetic purchases, it really does not affect the game much.

Personally I hate the idea of "artillery" and "air strikes", because I feel "UAV"s and "Nukes" are not far behind. I'm not too worried yet though, PGI has shown that they want to hear how the community feels about what they're doing to the game, and I have already seen a post by the developers stating that they want to hear any complaints or concerns on the forums. Just express your displeasure, and I'm sure things will change.

[MustrumRidcully]

The problem with consumables (and this also affected REpair & Rearm) - if you cannot afford a steady supply of consumables by just playing the game, then people that spend real world money will have an advantage. They will always have the consumable avaialble, and those that play for free and grind will not have it all the time.

I will however argue this. If the prices of the consumables are so low that you can always afford to refresh your modules after each match (and still keep something left over), then it's okay. Then Consumables are essentially a money sink. And that is something that MW:O will need.

[Grrzoot]

Doobles, on 06 March 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

This is not an MMORPG, you play for the sake of fun and fighting in a mech, which is a unique experience. In MMORPGs you strive to be the best, get the best crap and by skill and gear calculation you are a "good player". This game requires skill and every mech has an Achilles' Heel. Do not compare the two MMO types, they are different. Now you state that these consumables give the player an unfair advantage. I understand that you are saying everyone should be able to grind them out but grind is a nasty word. I don't want to grind to get an advantage, I want an advantage based on my own skill. That is where the issue lies. If I start grinding for everything I lose interest in the game rather than enjoying the game itself. It puts player focus on being the best than playing for fun. When you are the best because you grind all your crap, MMORPGs are not really fun anymore, I don't want that here.

I agree your point is valid though, don't get me wrong. Though I may be missing the point entirely. I went off on a rant.

i understand this viewpoint also, I hate grinding that is basically why i quit playing certain games because the time investment got too high. But that is a PRO of the f2p model, where if something like this is implemented, you don't have to grind if you would rather pay for it. I mean i paid my 15 bucks a month for years, i bought a 60 dollar founders pack and definately got my moneys worth here. I don't mind shelling out some money each month for premium or what have you, but im not a paint guy/cammo guy idk about that part, to me hero mechs are mostly meh, i can see why they are trying to get people to spend there mc and i am ok with it, as long as its fair and balanced.

MustrumRidcully, on 06 March 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

The problem with consumables (and this also affected REpair & Rearm) - if you cannot afford a steady supply of consumables by just playing the game, then people that spend real world money will have an advantage. They will always have the consumable avaialble, and those that play for free and grind will not have it all the time.

I will however argue this. If the prices of the consumables are so low that you can always afford to refresh your modules after each match (and still keep something left over), then it's okay. Then Consumables are essentially a money sink. And that is something that MW:O will need.

I agree with this, as long as its ONLY time vs. Money, i do not believe that the consumables should differ in any form from paid for to played for.