52 replies to this topic

[Erik Hollister]

Fred013, on 06 March 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

So... I don't like ECM so let's add more ECM?

Yeah, pretty much. Look, they aren't going to nerf ECM... the multitude of RVN 3L pilots would flood the forums with their tears. There is no way ECM leaves the game.... so, lets just give it to everyone and finish the fundamental change that PGI has made in this game.

So, let everyone have ecm, get rid of SSRMs and LRMs (which have been nerfed almost to uselessness), and have a complete LOS game ala CoD.

[Kaziganthi]

mwhighlander, on 06 March 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

All mechs (or most) should be able to mount ECM, and ECM should be fixed.

Problem solved.

Just like all mechs should be able to mount Jumpjets...give me my 100 ton jumping Fatlas.

[Erik Hollister]

Dr Killinger, on 06 March 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

In the small amount of games I've run since the patch, ECM isn't a problem any more- for me, the problem was never DDCs and the like, it was light mechs with Streaks. Lasers can easily deal with them after the implementation of state rewind.

Wrong. I just got toasted by a premade consisting of nothing but ECM lights and cicadas. 8 to 1 loss... and it wasnt even that close. I got lucky on a spider with some MLs and took him out. They did a great job of swarming and using cover.... had no idea where they were coming from. Very good squad, admittedly, but should 8 mechs 30 tons and under be able to decimate 2 lances of heavies and assaults? No, no they should not.

ECM breaks this game.

[Tarman]

Maybe we should give everyone JJ too. And the exact same hardpoints. And weapons. And tonnage.

Making everything the same is not equal to balance.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

If its not overpowered why not let every mech have it?

[Erik Hollister]

Pater Mors, on 06 March 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

Personally don't have a problem with ECM. If you're running against a Mech who has ECM it forces you to change tactics and creates target priority. It's a tad annoying facing a whole team running ECM but thems the breaks. If you can't change your tactics to make you successful against a Mech with ECM then you're not versatile enough or you've wandered off on your own and had no chance anyway. All is fair in love and war.

Bad take, bro. If you KNOW the other team is heavy on ecm, you can plan ahead. In case you hadn't noticed, LRMs are heavy. If you have them and cant use them, you are useless ssrm/med laser bait for the 3Ls and such. I guess you just change your tactics and don't mount any, taking away another important part of the game in order to satisfy the twitch gamers.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

This was answered by Per Bryan Ekman - Creative Director - Piranha Games Inc. In ask the devs 33


Can the Jenner 7K get ECM...?

A: "No plans to add ECM to any other mechs yet."

[Erik Hollister]

Tarman, on 09 March 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Maybe we should give everyone JJ too. And the exact same hardpoints. And weapons. And tonnage.

Making everything the same is not equal to balance.

Yet another bad take. Maybe you haven't noticed, but if a game designer creates an item/modification etc that is OP, the swarms use it to the exclusion of all else. There are only 5 mechs that can haul ecm right now. There are currently 62 mechs available. Mathematically, there should be 1-2 ecms per battle, both sides combined. I can't remember the last fight that didn't have 3-4 minimum. Like I said, I was just on a heavy team that got SMOKED by a team of ecm lights an cicadas.... wasn't even close. About a 3 minute battle, if that. (Of course, I don't have any idea how much friendly fire damage took place as they swarmed our ranks... probably a lot).

[ivr56]

It's fine as it is for mech availability.

Balance wise is another story.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Kaziganthi, on 09 March 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Just like all mechs should be able to mount Jumpjets...give me my 100 ton jumping Fatlas.

Actually, no. They shouldn't. Even some mechs in Canon that could mount jump jets could not jump very well.

For instance, the Wolverine

Sarna.net said:

The jump jets on the design are prone to failure and, because of this, there are some variants that completely remove them from the design (in favor of more armor or weapons).

There are however, a piece of equipment called the Jump Pack.

Sarna.net said:

a way to give ground-bound 'Mechs an option to perform surprise attacks catching enemy off-guard. Pack however cut 'Mechs maximum speed by the half due to it's bulk on 'Mech body and legs.

[Tincan Nightmare]

As long as ECM stays as is, I'm all for making it available to every mech design. If you can just adapt to it, its not OP, and just need to learn to play, people can adapt too and learn to play against EVERY mech I drive carrying it.

[Kaziganthi]

mwhighlander, on 09 March 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Actually, no. They shouldn't. Even some mechs in Canon that could mount jump jets could not jump very well.

For instance, the Wolverine


There are however, a piece of equipment called the Jump Pack.

But according to Canon mech design..yes I can mount a jumpjet on any mech during construction...or did you forget about that.

Just because you cite a mech that says it has issues and they removed them doesn't invalidate my sarcastic point. What about all the non jumping canon mechs, that have had jump jets included in their variants. Case in point..the Trebuchet, Ostroc, Crusader, Thunderbolt.

You also want to play the Canon part..okay. Jumpjets do not function in water. They are in effect a jet engine design to super heat air to form thrust, and when mixed with water have a tendancy to EXPLODE, as we all know what happens to water when it boils..oxygen/hydrogen. Hydrogen +heat = explosion. So all the mechs in game that use them whilst running in water, if they are not equipped above the water line will start to lose body parts.

How many of the current mechs that equip jumpjets when running in river city have most of their waistline above the water level. I'd say only the Cataphract.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 09 March 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[Headlessnewt]

My votes (as an anti-ECM crusader):

1) Give it to every chassis and variant. (That'll make it have to get nerfed right quick, cause everyone ever would mount it, proving it's game-changing, if not actually OP).

2) I liked the 'make a module that lets you mount ECM' option. For pretty much the same reason.

3) Similarly I'd be fine with buffing the other Electronic warfare gear (Narc, Tag, BAP... may be Command Console?) to counter it more effectively than it does now.

Anyway, I am with you because I hate ECM. Not because it's overpowered (it's not) but because it's STUPID.

[Tarman]

Erik Hollister, on 09 March 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Yet another bad take. Maybe you haven't noticed, but if a game designer creates an item/modification etc that is OP, the swarms use it to the exclusion of all else. There are only 5 mechs that can haul ecm right now. There are currently 62 mechs available. Mathematically, there should be 1-2 ecms per battle, both sides combined. I can't remember the last fight that didn't have 3-4 minimum. Like I said, I was just on a heavy team that got SMOKED by a team of ecm lights an cicadas.... wasn't even close. About a 3 minute battle, if that. (Of course, I don't have any idea how much friendly fire damage took place as they swarmed our ranks... probably a lot).

I'll put sarcasm tags on stuff in future, sorry.

ECM needs some tweaking. It's supposed to be a specialized piece of kit, that currently it does a lot for a little. That's a kit problem that should be addressed by tweaking the kit itself. It doesn't need to be distributed to the masses. Handing it out to everyone is just silly, same as my comment about handing out JJ to everyone was meant to be read.

There are ways to balance out ECM use that don't involve giving everyone the same exact powers. It's bland and boring when everyone has the very same ability across the board. Like making a superhero game where everyone has all the same powerset. The game is about combinations of diversity to achieve goals, not 100% parity of ability.

Now if you're merely saying OMG IT SUX LETS JUST HAND IT OUT TO EVERYONE AND REALLY WRECK THE GAME, that's just a defeatist attitude.

[Pater Mors]

Erik Hollister, on 09 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Bad take, bro. If you KNOW the other team is heavy on ecm, you can plan ahead. In case you hadn't noticed, LRMs are heavy. If you have them and cant use them, you are useless ssrm/med laser bait for the 3Ls and such. I guess you just change your tactics and don't mount any, taking away another important part of the game in order to satisfy the twitch gamers.

No, I don't think so. What you're talking about there is called 'putting all your eggs in one basket' and it's fine. It works and can be a very powerful weapon on the battlefield, whether we're talking about LRM boats, laser boats, ballistics boats - whatever. The thing is that when you put all your eggs in one basket, you are extremely strong in your chosen area and extremely weak in other areas. If I get within 180m of an LRM boat (ECM or not) I should be able to shred it to bits.

You shouldn't be able to put all your eggs in one basket and still have a balanced load out and it's the risk you take when deciding to mount all LRM's or whatever other weapon you decide to boat.

Again, I'm not saying those builds are bad or don't work because they clearly do. But the idea is that you are trading off a lot of weaknesses for one really big strength.

ECM in it's current form makes the decision to boat a little bit harder (a good thing) and encourages forward planning and balanced builds, but judging by the amount of LRM's flying across every map I play I don't feel that it's impossible to use them or that they're even really hindered in any way. I run a Treb with 2xLRM15 and don't have much trouble emptying my entire ammo supply and doing significant damage, despite ECM.

[Moromillas]

Give it to everyone? That's not a very good solution to balance. ECM then becomes mandatory for everyone to have, and balancing weapons around it becomes a nightmare. Yes, it is a shame that non-ECM variants just don't stack up, giving ECM to everyone will just make a huge mess. Lets not do that.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Pater Mors, on 09 March 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

ECM in it's current form makes the decision to boat a little bit harder (a good thing) and encourages forward planning and balanced builds, but judging by the amount of LRM's flying across every map I play I don't feel that it's impossible to use them or that they're even really hindered in any way. I run a Treb with 2xLRM15 and don't have much trouble emptying my entire ammo supply and doing significant damage, despite ECM.

I would say in the case of the A1 Splatapault or the 6 PPC Stalker it hasn't changed anything in regards to boating for those mechs. Heck a 9 med. laser 4P Hunch wouldn't be affected either. The only thing ECM effects in regard to boating is LRM's and Streaks. Boating lasers, AC's, or SRM's is totally unaffected by ECM. In regards to the A1 6xSRM6, it makes it easier as one under cover of friendly ECM can more easily get into range.

If ECM is not that big a deal, then let every mech carry it. Every mech can carry a BAP, so make Guardian (the super plus version) available as well. I know I would put it into every mech I own, the only reason I don't right know is that I don't own a single chassis that can mount it.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Moromillas, on 09 March 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Give it to everyone? That's not a very good solution to balance. ECM then becomes mandatory for everyone to have, and balancing weapons around it becomes a nightmare. Yes, it is a shame that non-ECM variants just don't stack up, giving ECM to everyone will just make a huge mess. Lets not do that.

Yes but this is the point. All those in defense of the current implementation of ECM say that it doesn't affect them and/or they can counter it. If thats the case then give it to every mech. Wether its OP or not will become evident once it is present in every match on every mech save new players in trials. Give all those arguing for keeping ECM as is what they want, just more off it.

[Tarman]

Tincan Nightmare, on 09 March 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Yes but this is the point. All those in defense of the current implementation of ECM say that it doesn't affect them and/or they can counter it. If thats the case then give it to every mech. Wether its OP or not will become evident once it is present in every match on every mech save new players in trials. Give all those arguing for keeping ECM as is what they want, just more off it.

That is an extremely silly way to prove a point. That would change the meta no matter what kit it was, because you've drastically changed the delivery model of that kit, not the kit itself. If we let everyone mount an AC20 in their cockpit, that would change the game too, and would make about as much sense.

[Pater Mors]

I disagree with giving ECM to everyone. ECM is supposed to be an Information Warfare weapon and that is not the role that every Mech should be playing. It should be limited to scouts, lights and certain heavy and assault chassis as it is now.