186 replies to this topic

[HRR Insanity]

Zaptruder, on 06 March 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

This game needs to be balanced on several fronts. At the individual level, at the tactical level and at the metagame level.

At the indivdual level, Inner Sphere mechs are never going to be balanced with clan mechs one on one. The lore isn't like that, the TT rules aren't like that, and for the sake of retaining that interesting dynamic, this game shouldn't be about that either.

At a tactical level, the easiest solution is faction based. Clan teams and Innersphere teams completely segregated. That'll allow us to have 4v8, or 5v8 or 10v14 or whatever ratio the gameplay guys determines is most appropriate.

The problem... exists at the meta level. The reality is, players are going to be both clan and innersphere players.

But players naturally prefer feeling a sense of superiority; choosing the more powerful mechs (not necessarily the most powerful, but ones that are certainly competitive at a 1 on 1 level with the most powerful; so in current game terms that means mechs that have been fully upgraded; ES, Ferro, DHS, XL, etc as appropriate).

So even if players are able to play both factions on the same account; it creates a metagame problem where players end up in their clan mechs most of the time.


So how do you solve this? How do you incentivize players to climb back into their innersphere mechs to restore a metagame balance; where you can still see an equal number of clan and innersphere players?


The solution might not be too far away at all; the developers have already mentioned they're planning on incorporating a "Dropship mode" down the line; where players queue up multiple mechs and drop again after the one they're in blows up; until they run out of mechs in their queue.

Taking that and applying it to Innersphere mechs... while the mech power doesn't go up, the player power goes up instantly. Suddenly, there's a large incentive to play on the Innersphere side if you're a personally competitive player; because you get a free life!


The upside of this solution is that it will gel quite well with mechanics to be introduced, the lore and the general asymmetrical feel of innersphere and clan mechs, without creating unnecessary and arbitrary rulesets (like enforcing zellbriggen).

In the projected timeframe of clan mech launch; 12v12 should already be out.

If it's a clan v innersphere match, you could have 10 clans vs 12 innersphere; keeping in line with the lore based cluster of units.

The reason you'd do 10 clan vs 12 innersphere is because having a redrop isn't equal to having 2 mechs; it's somewhat less, due to the fact that you'll be out of place when the redrop occurs; your team will be getting cut up by Clan mechs and it'll take a few moments for you to reach the front lines again for reinforcement.

So it'll create a intersting gameplay dynamic, where the first wave of IS mechs are there to soften up the clans as much as possible; while the objective for the clanners are to cut down the IS as swiftly as possible without compromising their battlefield endurance (ammo/armour/consumables)... and when the second wave gets on, then the real fight to the death begins; fresh IS mechs against weakened clan mechs.

10 v 12 = dead inner sphere.

Ratio should be 5:8 at a minimum, which would be around 8 v 12 to make it vaguely fair.

[Taemien]

Asmosis, on 09 March 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Thats an assumption on your part, which you then take to be fact to base your opinion on.

We're not playing BT, we're playing MWO.

We know they will do something to balance it out, whether its fast forwarding the timeline to allow IS to use clantech/mixtech w/e you want to call it (they have already said they can/will FF timeline as needed) or modifiying omni mechs so they more closely resemble what most of the player base are used to (previous MW games).

They are opinions based on facts displayed by what they've already done with the Mechlab thus far. In fact they've been more restrictive in somewhats and liberal in other ways on how they have handled the Mechlab. My information is no more false or irrelevant then a news station.

Karr285, on 09 March 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

not to say it would be the balancing feature, but Clanners do not use such methods as Artillery and Airstrikes as they cause collateral damage that clanners despise and goes against the whole "honour" thing. so thats a +1 to playing IS i guess... maybe???

Not true. Clans are able to performed combined assets in how they make war. They have Artillery and AeroSpace assets. They also use TAG, NARC, and other means of helping each other fire. Its just when they do their batchall and zelbrigen they tend to like to avoid using such. But that depends on how much they respect their foe.

There is many instances that Clans will go out of their way to bring everything they have to bear and wage a total war, especially against a hated enemy or the Inner Sphere. Its just at the first part of the invasion they were fighting token resistance (backwater worlds) and toyed with the defenders with the honor rules.

HRR Insanity, on 09 March 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

10 v 12 = dead inner sphere.

Ratio should be 5:8 at a minimum, which would be around 8 v 12 to make it vaguely fair.

10v12 equals a 12-0 or 12-1 stomp against the clans more times than not. Any ratios worse than that means they will hardly ever have a chance.

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

10v12 equals a 12-0 or 12-1 stomp against the clans more times than not. Any ratios worse than that means they will hardly ever have a chance.

If you do the math, 10v12 assumes that each Clan mech is only 20% better than an IS mech. lolwut.

[Taemien]

FupDup, on 09 March 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

If you do the math, 10v12 assumes that each Clan mech is only 20% better than an IS mech. lolwut.

Alright smart guy. Since you're going to throw math at me and make a joke about it. Tell me how much 'better' a clan mech is than an IS mech and I want you to quote your sources. If you won't do that, then you are simply a derp.

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Alright smart guy. Since you're going to throw math at me and make a joke about it. Tell me how much 'better' a clan mech is than an IS mech and I want you to quote your sources.

That would depend upon the configuration used by the Clanner. Putting an exact number on it is practically impossible, but it's probably safe to say that it's more than 20%.

Let's look at the weapons that Clanners are bound to boat in as many numbers as they can:

1. Clan LRM 20's weigh 5 tons and have no minimum range. A Clan mech with a few of these would be a Streakapult with 1000M range and way more damage.

2. Clan UAC/20 weighs 1 ton more than an IS AC/20 but gets the double-fire bonus. These are going to seriously dismember anything that gets in range of them.

3. Clan Gauss Rifles weigh 3 tons less.

4. Clan ER Medium Laser has the same range as an IS LL, 4 tons lighter weight, only 1 critical space, generates 3 less heat, and as a drawback generates 1 less point of damage.

5. Clan SSRMs...I don't think I need to elaborate. Still, they're most likely going to be overshadowed by CLRMs.

6. Clan XL engines don't cause death when you lose a side torso (takes both sides to kill).

7. Clan Ferro and Endo only take up 7 critical spaces.


All non-mentioned Clan tech is good as well, but those items above are most likely going to be the "bread and butter" of Clanner player's loadouts in MWO when they finally arrive. Take any given IS mech in-game right now and replace its loadout with Clan tech (can't physically do it but we can imagine it or use MW3 for most of it except for Endo/Ferro). You're probably going to get more than 20% more mileage out of that min/maxxed Clan unit than an IS unit made to mimic it as closely as possible (can't fully mimic due to tonnage and crits).

Something we need to remember when talking about these hypothetical situations is that MWO has weapon convergence, allowing Clan tech's damage to reach a point of "critical mass" much faster than our current IS weapons can (which is still pretty fast in some cases). Double armor of the IS mechs will probably be negated by being about to mount such heavy firepower (double armor helps Clanners more than IS because many Clan stock mechs have crappy armor but insane firepower).

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

If you won't do that, then you are simply a derp.

Herp.

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[Fieldmarshal]

Something has to give. You need to have a overall balanced game even if Clanners have better weapons/mechs.

My opinion,

Let Clanners have their better Mech's, but they will have to give up resources and supply perks to the IS mechs. Clanners are the invaders, as such they should have a big disadvantage in resources available, meaning, clan players need to finish off IS players quickly, and drag the match into a game of attrition, where the IS players should get the advantage. Two i ways this can work,

Resupply feature - Allow IS mechs to resupply once per match. Clanners will have to use what they bought, if they run out of ammo, too bad.

Repair feature - There are different ways this could work. For instance, have actual repair stations in the map, say atleast two, that IS mechs can repair themselves. These stations would be owned by the IS team on the start of the game, these stations can be captured by Clan players, making them unusable for IS players, if IS players want to use it, they have to recapture it. And if your mech is being repaired it is shut down for "x" seconds, making it vulnerable to enemy fire, and it can only repair one mech at a time. I am sure there are other ways this could work.

Basically the idea is, the Clan team really need to push hard and destroy the IS team as quickly as possible (before they can pull back and repair), while the IS team needs to survive long enough where their resources perk give them the advantage.

[Taemien]

While clan mechs have tons of Firepower, they are regulated by heat just like IS mechs are. And with how Double Heatsinks work, clan mechs will have good alphas, but poor damage over time. They don't have access to heat efficient weapons. For example, there is a reason why I use Large Lasers over ER Large Lasers. Clans won't have Large Lasers.

Clan LRMs are my only concern. But they won't be a concern unless they can indirect fire. I have no reason to believe that PGI will allow them to do this. In fact to give them no minimum range, I don't really see how they could indirect fire (unless they do some crazy range check to determine the angle of launch by the range of the target).

Not many LRMs are going to hit in close range unless you're charging the clanner head on. And most long range attacks can be mititaged by cover (I've said this in the current LRM threads, my 45kph Stalker can take little to no damage from Indirect LRMs by using cover and no ECM/AMS).

Streaks will be an issue until they edit the code to have them spread out the damage to different parts of the mech such as legs and arms. They've mentioned working on this.

I don't believe UACs will be much of an issue, double tapping means shots are going to go crazy. They will be deadly where a mech is hugging another but that's about it. Have you ever seen double tapped UAC5s hit the same location, even relatively up close? I won't lie, half of mine miss (but I can't help the sound it makes lol)

Everyone of clan's energy weapons are ER, they don't have standard. Thats a ton of heat. I haven't been able to make very many laser boats that could continuously fire due to heatsink limitations. If they had Clan Medium Lasers or Clan PPCs, then things would be very scary. But they have all ER which do have insane ranges. But those ranges are mitigated by the maps in play. Even Alpine isn't going to allow for maximum potential of clan range.

A 7 Heat, 9 Damage Large Laser and our 9.5 heat, 9 damage ER Large Laser will still be effective against the 12 Heat, 10 damage Clan Er Large Laser.

The decent advantage Clans have is like you said, the gauss is 3 tons less. It can mount it and 3 tons of ammo for the same weight. That's a pretty decent advantage and I never said Clans DIDN'T have any advantages. They do. But they can be mitigated and balanced by what I said before:

No Indirect Fire LRMs
No sharing of target data.

That will severely limit the amount of focus firing that a clanner can do. It will put them on the defensive in each match as they could easily be focused on if they are not careful. You get a mech that is ton for ton better in armor, weapons, and speed, but you're pretty much on your own. And you've got more heat to manage.

[Merky Merc]

Fieldmarshal, on 09 March 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Basically the idea is, the Clan team really need to push hard and destroy the IS team as quickly as possible (before they can pull back and repair), while the IS team needs to survive long enough where their resources perk give them the advantage.

I know that's basically how the IS won in the books, but unless matches become some 30+ minute events I don't see your idea working well in it's execution. I like the concept though.

I suspect that much like the lore based mechs of Op Serpent and TF Bulldog, we'll be retrofitting our IS mechs with clan tech ASAP. And then the IS gets MRM40s and RACs and whatnot

[Fieldmarshal]

Merky Merc, on 09 March 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

I know that's basically how the IS won in the books, but unless matches become some 30+ minute events I don't see your idea working well in it's execution. I like the concept though.

I don't believe they need to be that long, even with the current length of the matches it could work. Obviously if the IS players rush the Clanners they negate any advantage their resources would give them, but if they played a more defensive style game, their extra resources can turn the tide of battle.

[Vodrin Thales]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

While clan mechs have tons of Firepower, they are regulated by heat just like IS mechs are. And with how Double Heatsinks work, clan mechs will have good alphas, but poor damage over time. They don't have access to heat efficient weapons. For example, there is a reason why I use Large Lasers over ER Large Lasers. Clans won't have Large Lasers.

Simply not true. Clan double heatsinks only take up 2 critical slots, and due to the other weight/crit space advantages clan mechs are generally more heat efficient than their inner sphere counter parts. They have better burst and DPS than inner sphere mechs as their heat dissipation capability is just well above their inner sphere counter parts.

[FupDup]

Taemien, on 09 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

While clan mechs have tons of Firepower, they are regulated by heat just like IS mechs are. And with how Double Heatsinks work, clan mechs will have good alphas, but poor damage over time. They don't have access to heat efficient weapons. For example, there is a reason why I use Large Lasers over ER Large Lasers. Clans won't have Large Lasers.
-
Everyone of clan's energy weapons are ER, they don't have standard. Thats a ton of heat. I haven't been able to make very many laser boats that could continuously fire due to heatsink limitations. If they had Clan Medium Lasers or Clan PPCs, then things would be very scary. But they have all ER which do have insane ranges. But those ranges are mitigated by the maps in play. Even Alpine isn't going to allow for maximum potential of clan range.

A 7 Heat, 9 Damage Large Laser and our 9.5 heat, 9 damage ER Large Laser will still be effective against the 12 Heat, 10 damage Clan Er Large Laser.

If a Clanner player tried to use their ER lasers as supplements for equal-class standard IS lasers on their builds, then they would definitely be roasty-toasty. However, they don't need to match the classes. A Clan ER Medium Laser is pretty much a total replacement to an IS LL (use that spare tonnage on Clan DHS for even better heat efficieny). I doubt that most Clanners would bother with CERLLs.


A fun build that I use right now with my Raven 2X is 2 LL and 2ML. That makes 22 heat per alpha and 28 damage. It's a pretty useful build although it has issues on Caustic or if I get too trigger-happy. If there were a Clan light able to hold 4 energy weapons (probably quite likely), they could just use 4 CERML. Assuming unmodified TT damage and heat output (we don't know what PGI will give them, at least not yet), this would be 7 x 4 = 28 damage and 5 x 4 = 20 heat. I also would have 4 more free critical spaces, plus 8 more free tons to use on other things (like 2-slot DHS to make my heat efficiency far greater than that of my IS Raven 2X build). Let's not forget about Clan XL engines, Endo, and Ferro that go along with this...

In conclusion, my Clannitized-Raven 2X would have basically equal damage output (assuming I don't load in additional weapons with the impressive tonnage and crit savings), better survivability (better Endo and XL engines), better range (normal IS ML's aren't as good at LL range as CERML are), and better heat efficiency (can cram in more DHS)...plus a ton of spare crits and tonnage to make those advantages even better (such as adding more gunz, bigger engine, etc.).



Of course, heat and damage for our current IS lasers aren't fully TT so Clanners will probably follow a similar pattern. We can only guesstimate for now until we hear the exact numbers.



Anyways, on the ideas of stuff like no C3 and no indirect-fire LRMs, those would be some possible ways to stem the tide of trololol-ness of Clan tech. However, it would require some lore-stretching (which I'm completely fine with but many people will burn your house down if you dare suggest such a thing).

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2013 - 07:32 PM.

[Merky Merc]

FupDup, on 09 March 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Anyways, on the ideas of stuff like no C3 and no indirect-fire LRMs, those would be some possible ways to stem the tide of trololol-ness of Clan tech. However, it would require some lore-stretching (which I'm completely fine with but many people will burn your house down if you dare suggest such a thing).

HERESY. Or also making those CLRMs have long lock times at close range and have a very limited turning radius. Would still allow them to have their 0 minimum range, but also mean that a nimble IS mech could dart around the missiles. Or give them less damage as, theoretically, they must have more tech bits in the same size missile as a ISLRM so reduced warhead size or something, or space magic.

ORrrrrrr timewarp to 3059, we're all back from the Clan homeworlds and look at all the sweet things we put in our mechs. New pilots go buy a mad cat from the diamond sharks because.... let everyone have what they want.

[Kaspirikay]

Until clan mechs can field ECM + streaks, 3Ls will still dominate them.

[FupDup]

Kaspirikay, on 09 March 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Until clan mechs can field ECM + streaks, 3Ls will still dominate them.

Loki/Hellbringer Prime can, although it only has 1 missile hardpoint (although it comes with a SSRM6 in there). The Loki would probably buttf*ck light mechs (especially if it gets 5 energy hardpoints and uses some CERML in there).


The above sentences assume that Clan mechs will even be restricted by hardpoints instead of open "pod space" (if they do get pod space for w/e they want, then Lokis are just gonna load up on Streaks or CLRMs and trollololol all the way home).

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[Pater Mors]

The way I think it will go:

IS Mechs = Same as now.
Clan Mechs = Same as IS mechs but different skins. Same hardpoint system, everything.

I don't see any other way for it to be balanced and in reality I don't care as long as I can have a Mad Cat.

[Taemien]

Vodrin Thales, on 09 March 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Simply not true. Clan double heatsinks only take up 2 critical slots, and due to the other weight/crit space advantages clan mechs are generally more heat efficient than their inner sphere counter parts. They have better burst and DPS than inner sphere mechs as their heat dissipation capability is just well above their inner sphere counter parts.

Only to a certain degree. I tried a 6 ER Large Laser loadout on a 100 tonner and the heat disipation wasn't good enough. I ran out of criticals trying to make it work and it was still 10+ heat over being manageable. It turned out 6 PPC stalkers are more effective.

2.5 less heat on IS ERLL adds up after you start stacking them on.

FupDup, on 09 March 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

If a Clanner player tried to use their ER lasers as supplements for equal-class standard IS lasers on their builds, then they would definitely be roasty-toasty. However, they don't need to match the classes. A Clan ER Medium Laser is pretty much a total replacement to an IS LL (use that spare tonnage on Clan DHS for even better heat efficieny). I doubt that most Clanners would bother with CERLLs.


A fun build that I use right now with my Raven 2X is 2 LL and 2ML. That makes 22 heat per alpha and 28 damage. It's a pretty useful build although it has issues on Caustic or if I get too trigger-happy. If there were a Clan light able to hold 4 energy weapons (probably quite likely), they could just use 4 CERML. Assuming unmodified TT damage and heat output (we don't know what PGI will give them, at least not yet), this would be 7 x 4 = 28 damage and 5 x 4 = 20 heat. I also would have 4 more free critical spaces, plus 8 more free tons to use on other things (like 2-slot DHS to make my heat efficiency far greater than that of my IS Raven 2X build). Let's not forget about Clan XL engines, Endo, and Ferro that go along with this...

In conclusion, my Clannitized-Raven 2X would have basically equal damage output (assuming I don't load in additional weapons with the impressive tonnage and crit savings), better survivability (better Endo and XL engines), better range (normal IS ML's aren't as good at LL range as CERML are), and better heat efficiency (can cram in more DHS)...plus a ton of spare crits and tonnage to make those advantages even better (such as adding more gunz, bigger engine, etc.).

Clan BattleMechs will be an issue, but I'm sure their hardpoints (which would work identically to IS hardpoints) would be limited to the bare minimum that they can hold (like the 3L). However Clan OmniMechs will not be able to mount different Internals, Armor (A big one since not many clan mechs max out armor), or Engines. What you see is what you get.

For example a Vulture Prime would pronbably have these hardpoints: 2 Missile (RT and LT), 2 Omni (LA and RA), and 2 Energy (LA and RA). So at the most you'd fit those four Er Mediums and have enough room for maybe some SSRM6s and ammo and DHS's. 58 Firepower in a lightly armored package that cannot exceed 85kph

I'd rather have a CPLT-C1, but that is a personal preference. The Vulture above would be formidable in the right hands. Nothing wrong with that.

Quote

Of course, heat and damage for our current IS lasers aren't fully TT so Clanners will probably follow a similar pattern. We can only guesstimate for now until we hear the exact numbers.

I bet they use the TT values like they did with IS Lasers unless they prove to be underperforming. It makes sense since the chassis they are being mounted on will have different variables. This is just where we'll have to have faith they'll get it right. I think they will. I like how Large Lasers and PPCs perform currently. So I have no doubt that Clan versions will be in line.

Quote

Anyways, on the ideas of stuff like no C3 and no indirect-fire LRMs, those would be some possible ways to stem the tide of trololol-ness of Clan tech. However, it would require some lore-stretching (which I'm completely fine with but many people will burn your house down if you dare suggest such a thing).

No indirect fire LRMs for clans is no more lore stretching than currently implementation of ECM. Besides, having indirect fire capability is going to give them an 'effective' minimum range as the LRMs leave the launcher at a slight angle. And of course no C3 isn't stretching lore at all, I don't believe clans have ever used C3 on OmniMechs unless it was a salvaged IS Omni with it installed.

Its a much more elegant solution than trying to balance asymmetrical teams.

[roguetrdr]

I honestly don't think clans will ever make it into the game. And if they do all their kit will be MC only. But it wont be PTW because if you spend 15k GXP you can access a clan weapon for double the IS cost, but you have to do it for every individual weapon.

[Praehotec8]

All I can say is that it will be interesting to see how they work in the clans...

[Merky Merc]

roguetrdr, on 10 March 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

I honestly don't think clans will ever make it into the game.

Which is why basically every MW game ever has had a Mad Cat in it's logo. So clans could be left out of the newest edition in the series.

Time FF. Time warp. Time skip. Whatever you want to call it, the game isn't going to last 2+ years if it's trebuchets and centurions against ryokens and shadowcats.

[Glythe]

Now that PPC sniper builds are everywhere we need to make all the rest of the IS builds viable BEFORE clan mechs arrive....