35 replies to this topic

[Phalanx100bc]

The bad attitudes may continue over time given the MC credits bought up to date and the state of diminishing returns as far as development.

I for one won't use Beta anymore in favor of " a work in progress"...

Edited by Phalanx100bc, 07 March 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[valkyrie]

Or, maybe Paul can take his finger off the trigger before each announcement, make sure everyone thinks what he's about to shoot off is safe, and actually communicate with the players before going and shooting himself in the foot like he does every two months.

Stop fishing for compliments on reddit and start asking for formal, organized feedback on proposed changes and other issues (ie balance issues) on a regular basis. The game will get better, and people will start thinking better of Paul and Garth as a whole.

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

Livewyr, on 07 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

When I first got into the CBT: I remember Paul's attitude, and the attitude of the community. It was much much different, and I loved it.
The community was chilled out and excited for upcoming things, and Paul got to troll (with half-truths and embellishments- and then quash further questions) because the community could handle it.

Now Paul can't post about anything experimental and that might possibly happen without a waterfall of accusations and hate going to PGI/IGP... let alone troll with some embellishments and half-truths.

(If Paul made some P2W announcement back in CBT: there would have been some initial concern from those who didn't catch the embellishment integrated into the post, but overall amusement from the rest of us. If he did that now, he'd have to go into hiding...)


TL;DR
Community: Chill out: Post objectively, not reactionary.
Paul: Do funny stuff again, ignore the accusers and haters, cater to the chilled posters who still enjoy humor...

/rant

Hawkeye and I touched on this subject the other day.....things have changed since CB , you're right , way to serious.

I'm going to give Nubnub a call to see if anything can be done.

[Mawai]

Livewyr, on 07 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

When I first got into the CBT: I remember Paul's attitude, and the attitude of the community. It was much much different, and I loved it.
The community was chilled out and excited for upcoming things, and Paul got to troll (with half-truths and embellishments- and then quash further questions) because the community could handle it.

Now Paul can't post about anything experimental and that might possibly happen without a waterfall of accusations and hate going to PGI/IGP... let alone troll with some embellishments and half-truths.

(If Paul made some P2W announcement back in CBT: there would have been some initial concern from those who didn't catch the embellishment integrated into the post, but overall amusement from the rest of us. If he did that now, he'd have to go into hiding...)


TL;DR
Community: Chill out: Post objectively, not reactionary.
Paul: Do funny stuff again, ignore the accusers and haters, cater to the chilled posters who still enjoy humor...

/rant

Well ... if Paul had been posting a joke ... or had said "Here's what we are thinking about consumables ... what do you think?" or had otherwise indicated that his initial post on the subject was in some way tentative ... then I would completely agree with you.

However, he didn't. He posted a flawed design and implementation plan using a tone that indicated that here is what we are doing and it will be arriving March 19. There was no suggestion in the original post that the design was up for discussion or that changes would be made ... the only reason things have been changed is due to the uproar and generally logical feedback provided by the community objecting to the issues present in the original design.

As I result, I can only really conclude that they got what they deserved for posting a half-baked design. However, I am EXTREMELY grateful that they posted it at all ... instead of surprising everyone with the patch on March 19th ... this made it possible for the community to respond and the developer to take those concerns into consideration in redesigning the planned consumable implementation.

[Felicitatem Parco]

So, this topic is really a discussion about the game community, and some individuals involved in the game. It's not really a general discussion about the MW:O game client... Like, if we were talking about PPCs or something then it'd be a game general discussion. Since this is more of a personal shout-out/rant, but not totally off topic because it is MW:O-based, I'm gonna move it to Jettisoned Communications (not the deep jettison, but down with the meme thread and stuff).

[Chunkylad]

COMMUNITY. CHILL. OUT.



The downhill slide of the community seemed to start AFTER open beta so I think we have found the problem.

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

Prosperity Park, on 07 March 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

So, this topic is really a discussion about the game community, and some individuals involved in the game. It's not really a general discussion about the MW:O game client... Like, if we were talking about PPCs or something then it'd be a game general discussion. Since this is more of a personal shout-out/rant, but not totally off topic because it is MW:O-based, I'm gonna move it to Jettisoned Communications (not the deep jettison, but down with the meme thread and stuff).

I'm telling Nubnub.
He'll make you sit in the corner of a round house.
roflmfao. PP

Edited by whiskey tango foxtrot, 07 March 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

But we used to use the dirty ones...

[MustrumRidcully]

DaZur, on 07 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Admittedly this community has turned to taking itself waaaay to seriously...

WTF?

MW:O is serious business. Anyone saying anything else is just... wrong.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Ok, ok, okay... If you think there's no more humor left in the game...

... Then watch the full ending of the new Cicada video :-D

http://mwomercs.com/...deo/9vbud123P6U

[Livewyr]

stjobe, on 07 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

From the "Consumables" thread in the Command Chair:


He's hasn't changed all that much.

I think of that as more of that half-hearted chuckle a guy does while he's in agony from getting hit in the back of the head by a 2x4.

Shumabot, on 07 March 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

I have a message for paul too.

"Do a better job and the community will stop thinking you're a snake oil salesman trying to turn the game into a korean p2w mmo in every patch."


I'll wait to see actual improvements now that he's read my message.

I have a message for you.. "Do a better job of posting and you'll get taken seriously, not just insulted."

(PS: If Vassago Rain is liking your post.. you may want to re-evaluate the objectivity of your post.)

Jetfire, on 07 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

In CB, we knew everything was barely held together with scotch tape. Now we are dropping cash and even though I know everything is subject to change and I am taking risks giving them money, I make a point to give serious constructive feedback when I see things that can be better.

It seems like they would do a lot better pitching ideas to the community in the design phase, before they settle on implementation, only to re-rig implementation at the last minute. It would save a lot of time and aggravation for everyone. They seem to be good at responding to criticism though, so you can only be so hard on them.

In a perfect world, that'd be wonderful.. and given an objective audience that kept a thought to balance and not their own designs, it would be awesome. However.. given the varying play-styles and the not-so varied selfishness of players.. they'd never get anything done.

Ex: PGI: "We're thinking about changing ECM to keep it from blocking missile lock in order to bring a more active role to missiles in the game, at the same time we're reducing missile damage and knock and increasing the missile speed to keep them from being too strong."

Missile Crowd: YAY! Yeah nerf that ECM, but why fafuq you dropping the damage? They never hit anyways!
ECM Crowd: Good Job PGI, Welcome back to missile warrior online!

Would never get anything done.

Thuzel, on 07 March 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

Well this is ironic

1. They may say the game is still beta, but that's irrelevant when they started regular sales. As soon as that started to happen, people got a lot more serious. As they tend to when money is involved.
2. A large portion (won't quibble numbers) of the attitude you describe comes from the meta crowd. Just about any time someone makes a statement as to balance or game play, they get shot down with the worst kind of responses. It doesn't mater if they have numbers, theories, or just opinions, they get thrown back the typical "cry moar" posts...

If you want things to be more lighthearted and fun, don't go around slinging mud...

Admittedly.. occasionally I love slinging mud.. at the mudslingers. (Otherwise I've been known to have rational conversations that come to constructive ends.)

I can't necessarily stop the stupidity, but I can capitalize on it for fun.

Yoseful Mallad, on 07 March 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

They would save themselves a lot of backlash and trash talk if before something is to be implemented, they say hey community we can do it this way or this way or this way... And at least see our feedback FIRST before going and saying this is what website adding.

See above regarding addressing community first before implementation.

Shumabot, on 07 March 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Or if they communicated with their community at all, rather than releasing patch notes through IGN four days late and then describing a pay to win system that wasn't on the roadmap and which no one wanted or asked for.

PGI is literally worst in class for community engagement. It's horrific how bad of a job they do involving their community and preparing it for progress while contextualizing and explaining decisions (things that are an absolute requirement in an actual 'beta').

Also see above.

And btw: You're worst in class for objective posting. It's horrific how bad of a job you do in criticizing objectively and making people want to listen to you while objectifying and explaining your criticisms. (Things that are an absolute requirement in an actual constructive criticism for a beta.)

Hope you enjoyed that.

Orzorn, on 07 March 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Game is in beta, at least according to several people.

Beta is for feedback and tweaks.

We gave feedback.

We got tweaks.

Mission accomplished.

With unnecessary collateral damage..and you're proud?

valkyrie, on 07 March 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

Or, maybe Paul can take his finger off the trigger before each announcement, make sure everyone thinks what he's about to shoot off is safe, and actually communicate with the players before going and shooting himself in the foot like he does every two months.

Stop fishing for compliments on reddit and start asking for formal, organized feedback on proposed changes and other issues (ie balance issues) on a regular basis. The game will get better, and people will start thinking better of Paul and Garth as a whole.

See above regarding community discussion before implementation... it just wouldn't work.

whiskey tango foxtrot, on 07 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Hawkeye and I touched on this subject the other day.....things have changed since CB , you're right , way to serious.

I'm going to give Nubnub a call to see if anything can be done.

I'd like your post, however I have a personal issue with liking a post liked by its poster.

Mawai, on 07 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Well ... if Paul had been posting a joke ... or had said "Here's what we are thinking about consumables ... what do you think?" or had otherwise indicated that his initial post on the subject was in some way tentative ... then I would completely agree with you.

However, he didn't. He posted a flawed design and implementation plan using a tone that indicated that here is what we are doing and it will be arriving March 19. There was no suggestion in the original post that the design was up for discussion or that changes would be made ... the only reason things have been changed is due to the uproar and generally logical feedback provided by the community objecting to the issues present in the original design.

As I result, I can only really conclude that they got what they deserved for posting a half-baked design. However, I am EXTREMELY grateful that they posted it at all ... instead of surprising everyone with the patch on March 19th ... this made it possible for the community to respond and the developer to take those concerns into consideration in redesigning the planned consumable implementation.

He wasn't posting a joke.. that's my point.. he doesn't post jokes any more.
He gets (rightfully) annoyed by some of the stupid things out there.. and tries to add a little lightheartedness to a [redacting] of an idea.


------------
.....

Edited by Livewyr, 07 March 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Rakashan]

Kurshuk, on 07 March 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

I don't disagree. But I think the concern is that if one of these items gets into the product in a way that seperates C-Bill and MC usage. In a way that an MC version of something has a distinct advantage over the C-Bill version. That the item that created the imbalance will be utilized as a precedent for future items following the same trend.

I see that said all the time. If they did that, how much of the player-base would they lose? Do you think that they don't know that? So what you are saying is that they're so stupid that they believe that $5 from 5 players is better than $0.10 from 100,000. Yeaaaahhhh.... They managed to code a game that most of the readers here are playing and apparently enjoying and they're just that stupid. Somehow I am failing to follow this argument.

Take Shumbot. I gather he comes here to troll but hates the game because PGI is a bunch of failures who could not create a game that was fun to play even if they got lucky. To read his post you'd think he has more posts than PGI has players. And having passed a number of English classes I'm still not certain how to take the sentence "Sim city is more of a beta than this is." Does that mean this is an alpha or should be considered complete? Never mind that he then goes on to complain about PGIs terrible track record without even citing a single example which is amusing since he directly quotes me where I cite a number of examples both pro and con. To use his terminology you'd assume that PGI is somewhere below the Mendoza line so only 20% of the systems in this game work.

[MegaBusta]

Livewyr, on 07 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

(PS: If Vassago Rain is liking your post.. you may want to re-evaluate the objectivity of your post.)

I dunno, he usually seems pretty spot-on about things, if a bit doomsayish

Maybe you wanna re-evaluate your level of kool-aid consumption?

[Thuzel]

Livewyr, on 07 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I think of that as more of that half-hearted chuckle a guy does while he's in agony from getting hit in the back of the head by a 2x4.

.....

Holy crap man, nice responses (I'm not being sarcastic).

MegaBusta, on 07 March 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I dunno, he usually seems pretty spot-on about things, if a bit doomsayish

Maybe you wanna re-evaluate your level of kool-aid consumption?

He's a troll. In some lesser communities I've known, someone like him could very well be THE troll.

Pains me to say, but he does occasionally have valid points, you just have to dig through the mounds of crap to see them.

[Livewyr]

Thuzel, on 07 March 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Holy crap man, nice responses (I'm not being sarcastic).

Thank you



He's a troll. In some lesser communities I've known, someone like him could very well be THE troll.

Pains me to say, but he does occasionally have valid points, you just have to dig through the mounds of crap to see them.

Vassago is occasionally right indeed- just doesn't know what the meaning of "objective" is.

[Catamount]

I don't think changes in the nature of the community are due to changes in expectation or the fact that money is being spent, at least not on the part of the same people who used to be great and light-hearted; I think it's just that the bulk of posts are no longer made by the people who used to make this community great, and it was a foregone conclusion that this would happen.

Back in CB and before, this community was populated by enthusiasts who were here solely because they wanted to be part of the community. It was a group of people modest in size and of similar interest and mindset who were here to be here and support an upcoming game title (and geek out over BT, of course).


Now, the majority of posts seem to be from the post-OB launch, which means they're people who didn't give enough of a damn about this community to join before OB, and are now only here to give entitled whines about the game, because now that MWO's audience has grown, that's what people are here for: to whine about "their game", rather than contribute that said community.

That's why attitudes have changed, and why people like Paul can't be, well, cool the way they were before, at least not here (drop with these guys in-game, and they're still awesome).


I won't touch the discussion of PGI's management of MWO; that's a topic I don't feel like getting into right now. Insofar as the point of the thread, however, it doesn't matter how good or bad a job PGI does with the game. This community will probably never be as cool as it was, because the purpose of being here for the majority of people has changed. I've seen it happen on more beta forums for upcoming games than I'd care to name, and it was only a matter of time before that change occurred here.

Edited by Catamount, 11 March 2013 - 08:03 AM.