59 replies to this topic

[BigMooingCow]

LRM's are part of the BT rock/paper/scissors, along with long range ballistics and energy weapons. You shouldn't be any more frightened of LRMs than you are of PPCs or gauss rifles. (Well, at least until Clan featherweight LRMs show up.)

LRMs do WAY more damage than any other long range weapon, per second. They don't always hit with their full salvo, but they were balanced so that they were competitive assuming not many missiles hit (ie: PGI said "half missile hit, so double the damage"). Before ECM you could maintain a lock easily, so LRMs were a potent long range weapon because they were guided, they were indirect, and they were extremely long range.

Then ECM dropped and LRMs became useless. People can argue about that assertion all they want, but the proof is in the fact that NOBODY used LRMs anymore.

Now people are using LRMs again, apparently (I haven't dropped in a couple patches). Why is this? Does the increase in damage due to missile pathing make them more potent? Has the lagshield removal made more missiles hit than previously?

Either of those explanations mean the "fix" is here to stay, so in any case the fix for LRMs is this:

1) Make ECM work more like TT: it blocks Artemis, NARC (teehee), and C3. C3 is the biggie for us; this means no shared targeting of an enemy ECM mech that is within 180M of the friendly "spotter". Lets increase this to 450M because PGI has a massive hard-on for ECM, and they won't neuter their favorite equipment that much. This WILL prevent indirect fire from spotters who are within the ECM bubble, protecting your ECM mech (and everyone nearby) from fire support intruding upon your brawl. But it will no longer make ECM a "turn off missiles" button. (We could also say ECM still kills Streaks, so PGI doesn't have to be bothered to balance Streaks.)

2) Reduce the damage for LRMs. An LRM15 does almost double the DPS of a PPC. That means your AS7D can carry four low-heat, indirect fire PPC's, and still have room left for two LL's and two AC5's. INSANE. Reduce the damage per missile to one. An LRM20 will still do double the damage of a PPC with longer range, indirect fire, better accuracy, and less heat, but it will be tied to ammo. Still a MORE than fair deal.

PGI seems to like to balance this game in a full-on rock/paper/scissors mode. In other words, if you have a Rock, you ALWAYS beat scissors, but ALWAYS lose to paper. This is NOT FUN, IMHO. Streak mechs should have a chance against ECM mechs, and non-ECM mechs should have a chance against SSRMs and LRMs. Building an always-win or always-lose system like we have now saps the fun out of the game. It's not about piloting skill, it's about getting into a lucky drop where nobody has the counter weapon to defeat you. If I wanted to play a random chance game, I'd go play blackjack, where at least I'm going to make money, rather than forking over a ton of it to stay competitive in MWO.

[arghmace]

ICEFANG13, on 08 March 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Ok so, a Raven-3L comes up to you, and starts to engage you on your side of the hill on Caustic, and then LRMs are coming, where do you go?

If the LRM boat is on the other side of the hill, then his Artemis guidance won't work. He has to come and get a line of sight to you to get the tighter spread by Artemis. At which point your team can kill him with ppc's, gausses, ac's and large lasers. Or he can keep shooting missiles without seeing you but then his damage is spread all over the place, no one-shotting whatsoever.

I think the Artemis-LRM's got both a buff and a nerf. They are more effective against stationary and slow mechs due to more focused damage. But on the other hand bigger spread in missiles would mean that at least some of them hit fast moving mechs. Right now, good pilots in fast mechs are virtually immune to LRM's.

[Stingz]

arghmace, on 09 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

I think the Artemis-LRM's got both a buff and a nerf. They are more effective against stationary and slow mechs due to more focused damage. But on the other hand bigger spread in missiles would mean that at least some of them hit fast moving mechs. Right now, good pilots in fast mechs are virtually immune to LRM's.

Yep, Artemis LRMs + TAG fly like steaks but hit mostly the floor when the light is competent.

Running behind cover won't work when my LRMs are already behind and tracking you. They just turn and hit anyways.

Edited by Stingz, 09 March 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

arghmace, on 09 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

If the LRM boat is on the other side of the hill, then his Artemis guidance won't work. He has to come and get a line of sight to you to get the tighter spread by Artemis. At which point your team can kill him with ppc's, gausses, ac's and large lasers. Or he can keep shooting missiles without seeing you but then his damage is spread all over the place, no one-shotting whatsoever.

I think the Artemis-LRM's got both a buff and a nerf. They are more effective against stationary and slow mechs due to more focused damage. But on the other hand bigger spread in missiles would mean that at least some of them hit fast moving mechs. Right now, good pilots in fast mechs are virtually immune to LRM's.

We are talking about a Jenner here, light mechs, not "gauss and PPC then back" mechs.

Liquidx, on 09 March 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Down the hill, behind a bigger friendly mech or other obstacle would have been your best bet in this scenario. But since you were engaged with another enemy at the time and you had no ECM, the LRM guy had a nice spotter. Get rid of the spotter, or hang out near better cover, or get ECM.

The bumps and ridges along the top of the caldera are usually good cover - provided the enemy launching the missiles is on the other side of it. But really, the same thing would have happened to you if you had been hit by 2 gauss (provided clear los) so I don't think the problem here is LRMs.

I agree they should likely have a reduction in damage - but there is a good many things that need to happen before they get nerfed. It can be quite difficult to hold missile lock on someone, especially a light. Having a good spotter, or in this case, having you distracted by being engaged with the raven makes this much easier.

You're effectively talking about a 2v1 situation here.

LRMs make a 2v1 happen all the time, you don't know where the angle is or how many there is, its hard to be prepared for it if you don't know those things.

I don't think LRMs are extremely OP, but they do need to be nerfed in some way, as does ECM, as LRMs are so do or die right now, killing mechs lulzly fast but sometimes are worthless.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Right now, standard LRMs are basically pre-patch Artemis LRMs. Too much focused damage. It either needs to be buffed, or AMS needs to be stronger

[UberPotato]

A suggestion for dodging lrms with no cover. Run at a 90 degree angle and cut toward them before they hit(in something fast obviously). You may take a couple hits, but it's better than the full barrage. Artemis can be a little more tricky, but it's still possible to avoid them.

Don't forget light mechs do not have a lot of armor. 22 on a side torso isn't very much and lrms can do much more than that. So if you find yourself being taken out often by lrms, you are doing something wrong. Use cover, avoid visibility, and keep moving!

Edited by UbersAlterEgo, 09 March 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[Misunderstood Miscommunication]

So far all Im really seeing is a bunch of people wanting to be ******** and telling everyone that they need cover or they suck... I only read the first two pages of the post, but that is a wonderful way to respond to someone who sees something being a bit too powerful... Which LRMs currently are. Even in an Atlas, three volleys of LRM15 can wipe you out... That wasnt like that before. I could weather atleast a few barrages of LRMs in a trial Cicada a couple weeks ago. How is it possible that something is not overpowered when you could survive it in a medium and now you cant in an assault? Just because people like to boat them and love LRMS doesnt mean they arent overpowered... Not to mention, everyone is looking at this in completely the wrong way... You cant always hide behind cover... otherwise you cant do your job as a scout or harasser... or you wont be able to do any damage at all basically making your team into a group of 7 vs 8 enemies... Plus, there is a big difference between scout and harasser which most people dont seem to see. Scout is a highly armored, very fast mech that sacrifices weapons for this to be possible(in most cases, even though some can fit everything on their light and still not be called overpowered). Harasser sacrifices some armor and speed(again... in most cases...) for more weapons to be able to kill something quickly while its back is turned or its focused on someone else. Not everyone plays the game the same. So to say that everyone should have high armor and speed on a light is stereotyping. Why should everyone be forced to play a super fast light with max armor? Why cant I play the same way but sacrifice a bit of armor and speed to be a bit more helpful after the scouting phase is over and everyone is brawling? Sure, of course, when you drop your armor almost to zero a single barrage from an LRM15 should wipe your *******. But if you still have a fairly high amount of armor(not max) on your light and a single barrage knocks off both your arms, destroys the weapons in your torsos, and turns your legs and center torso red, thats a bit ******** and overpowered. Nobody likes to look at things objectively. Its like the refs you see in sports who obviously likes one team more than the other so they call all sorts of fouls and unnecessary calls on one team, but not the other when both are doing it. Step back and look... LRMs really werent bad before. Now they are ridiculous. Not to mention, the way the lag and net-code is, you may think you are dodging missiles, but in actuality they already hit you, it just didnt register yet...

Edited by Misunderstood Miscommunication, 09 March 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Sturmwind]

arghmace, on 09 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

If the LRM boat is on the other side of the hill, then his Artemis guidance won't work. He has to come and get a line of sight to you to get the tighter spread by Artemis. At which point your team can kill him with ppc's, gausses, ac's and large lasers. Or he can keep shooting missiles without seeing you but then his damage is spread all over the place, no one-shotting whatsoever.

I think the Artemis-LRM's got both a buff and a nerf. They are more effective against stationary and slow mechs due to more focused damage. But on the other hand bigger spread in missiles would mean that at least some of them hit fast moving mechs. Right now, good pilots in fast mechs are virtually immune to LRM's.

While that's correct and I agree to it, the problem I see here is the frustration that new players will have to endure when getting into this game. Like it has been said before: Even in a fully armored assault mech you won't survive more than 2 or 3 barrages if you happen to get tagged and have an Artemis boat on the other side with visual on you - and it would seem that most scout run a TAG currently, because of right that.

What I find more annoying though, is that even if you turn away from the missiles, they STILL hit you CT mostly, although you're facing them not head-on. It's as if they ignore your arm / side torso and pass right through it.

And although I might bruise a few feathers with saying this, but I still think that for a weapon that requires no real skill (since you only lock on, fire, repeat - a weapon for the "masses" - everyone can work with it) they do too much damage. There's no aim involved at all really. The only thing you have to do is fire when your target has no real cover so you hit.

Again, in competitive 8 man drop I've not seen any LRMs being used really, in normal 8mans you do encounter them. My concern is simply the ease with how you can shoot enemies into the stone-age, deal significant more damage than normal PPC builds while not having to do really anything but lock, shoot, lock, shoot, lock, shoot.

The counter argument that LRM boats are easy to kill is apparent, but again - I'm looking at it from a new player perspective - I play competitive personally, but not everyone does that and if you start a game, you should have at least a chance to try out different stuff with a learning curve, rather than being kinda forced to use the same stuff others use. Becoming a good pilot is pretty hard right now, I imagine.

After all, LRMs are supposed to be a "supportive" weapon, not a main weaponry which a lot of people seem to consider them now

Edited by Sturmwind, 11 March 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Misunderstood Miscommunication]

ForestGnome, on 08 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Be smart, use cover. Know your surroundings, stay near your team, run recon

Im not one to start out with name calling... but Im just gonna bold all that and call you a straight-out dumbass... Way to stick with the majority crowd and try to disprove someone's findings with your half-******** contradictions...

1. Be smart, use cover - Hmm, lets think about this one. What the hell does that mean? You are referring to people not using cover. There is not always cover to be used.... especially when you are a light and having to spot and do the job you are supposed to. So being smart really has nothing to do with anything. No ****, use cover. Im sure that never crossed anyone elses mind... EVER... Not to mention, most cover is only on one side, possible two sides. Unless you found some super awesome hiding spot that has four walls, a roof, and a window that allows you to FPS play and duck back into the building and then push forward to shoot and then hide in the corner again, that is not always possible with multiple enemies coming in at different sides all game long.

2. Know your surroundings. That doesnt have much to do with anything. Eventually playing the game for awhile, you do learn your surroundings. But using that in the "punch-line" of your post is basically just going back to number one. Way to basically say the same thing twice in a row...

3. Stay near your team. Not always possible when some teams like to split up into groups of two or even singles and you have multiple groups running around. (You may think that is stupid, but its actually a nice strategy if the team pays attention and assists their teammates being attacked. Ive seen it work on numerous occasions to great effect against a well organized enemy.). So staying with your team is not always something you can do... And that still doesnt stop LRMs kicking your *** and your teams ***. Especially when being close together also now allows for any missed LRMs aimed at you to hit teammates instead and turn into some nice damage for the enemy.

4. Run Recon. Yes... thats what most lights do... Thats STILL doesnt not stop LRMs from hurting... Also, that little piece of advice is very contradictory to what you have previously stated... Running recon does not always insure that there is cover... It more often than not puts you in harms way. It also basicaly puts you on your own... contradicting what you said about sticking with your team...

Please think before you post. Let me point you to the first part of 1. BE SMART. Use a little brain power before trying to jump on the band-wagon to cut people down so you feel good about yourself.

P.S. I can guarantee a moderator or some such person with power is going to say something about my name calling. Technically it is not, if you put the information together with what I just said. Its pointing out a fact. Im tired of all these people thinking they can just defame other people because they think they are the ultimate MWO player. Sure, they arent actually using specific words to put someone down, but reading their entire post that has an attitude of talking down to people or naming scenarios that basically try to make the person they are responding to look like idiots, is exactly the same as name calling.

Edited by Misunderstood Miscommunication, 16 March 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[aniviron]

It's not just lights. My max-armor hunchies can get cored to red from one shot, or lose a side torso plus extra.

As an occasional artemis user, I have to say that I find the implementation of it very frustrating. Either it does very little to the flight path and isn't worth taking up 2-4 crits + tonnage, or it just becomes silly. It also seems to have a huge effect on LRMs, but SRMs I notice very little change- this might be becauase ECM completely nullifies Artemis when in range, and there's so much ECM though.

[wuselfuzz]

http://mwomercs.com/...ted-2013-03-15/

probably applies to LRMs, too.

[Dadrick]

I've been one shot in my Chataphract by LRMs once when I strayed in the open for a bit too long. All of the missiles went into my side torso and had fun with my XL engine. I think the new Artemis is simply too accurate. Sure, you can dodge most volleys. But it only takes one or two volleys to put some serious hurt on someone. Ironically, ECM has become more valuable than ever now.

[Nightcrept]

Just wait until the splash damage is removed.

If Lrms use it and they don't counter balance then lrms won't be able to kill anything.

[Hayashi]

Only Commandos can be OHKOed from my experience. Most of the others can take heavy damage, but not OHKO.

And it's not a 'just' OHKO on commandos, it blows off everything other than the cockpit and occasionally a leg when more than 15 missiles hit.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Rashkae, on 07 March 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

I've been one-shotted in a *stalker* by a 4xLRM15 salvo. Go figure.

Ive been one-shotted by 6xPPC stalker.Go figure...

[Haitchpeasauce]

6xPPC Stalkers are far rarer than LRM boaters, of which there are many. At least PPC Stalkers are limited by heat and require excellent aim (which is harder with the slower torso speed of a Stalker). A PPC Stalker that hits a Light mech is either an amazing shot or the Light mech was stationary/extremely predictable.

LRMs have none of those problems, because they're guided!
At 400m (optimal range) the travel time is nearly negligible, not to mention sometimes you don't get an Incoming Missile message until very late. When tangled up in a fight it's very hard to find cover in time while dancing the mech in front of you.

Light mechs can't "stay with the team" and "use cover" if they're doing their best to "run recon" and TAG targets.

That 3L Raven on the other side is very fast to intercept and neutralise spotter scouts, that much is sure.

Finally, not all terrain has favourable cover. Think Alpine ... Caustic ... There are vast areas where line of sight is hard to break and missiles curve over the hills. It can be a real nightmare to scout. Sure there's some cover, but as if a Light is doing its job hiding in the same spot every time.

What if one day PGI made a map that is almost totally flat ...

[GODzillaGSPB]

Kunae, on 07 March 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

In their current implementation, LRMs with Artemis can almost guarantee a 1-shot on any non-ECM light mech.

It's becoming very frustrating being just hammered by Artemis LRMs, currently. On a Jenner, I've been effectively 1-shot in many games since the patch,by Artemis-LRMs, with no time or possibility of evasion/escape.

On the other side, I was able to 1-shot a commando, with twin Artemis LRM 15's, + tag, as he was running just slightly off straight towards me, on my Treb-5N. Needless to say, he was a tad annoyed with that.

A splatcat can one-shot any of my medium mechs with 50 front armor and 40 internals. Welcome to the wonderful world of min-max-warrior-online.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Kunae, on 07 March 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

You guys have no clue what you're talking about.

hahahahahhhahahahahahah
yeah...
it's funny whenever you get all that advice and commentary, and then remember who it's coming from. Especially after spectating so many puggers.

[Valore]

*wonders how long it will be before someone finally realises Artemis needs direct LoS to function, and that if you're being flattened by 'Artemis' LRMs, you were dancing about in full view of an LRM boat and somehow expecting to continue staying alive*

[GODzillaGSPB]

Team Leader, on 07 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Ive noticed lately that even at max speed, with jjs, and AMS, an Artemis barrage will spell "game over" in broken spider bits. Not sure what can be done about it. Working as intended, or overpowered? Idk.

Sorry that I quote such an early post, but it serves my argument: LRM barrages are not only dangerous for lights, but also for mediums. A double lrm15-barrage can as easily take out my Hunchback or Centurion as it can take out a light.

So people tell me "get into cover" and they are absolutely right! But why would this only be plausible for medium mechs, while light mech players look for ways to survive these missile rainstorms out in the open?

Lights need to use cover to. If this is really complaining that you get shot in the open then it is no legit complaining in my honest opinion. There is simply no excuse. You can do that if you got ECM (but then there's still TAG) but otherwise you'd have to be careful, too. You simply have to!