Lrms + Artemis = 1-Shotting Non-Ecm Lights
#41
Posted 09 March 2013 - 05:36 AM
LRMs do WAY more damage than any other long range weapon, per second. They don't always hit with their full salvo, but they were balanced so that they were competitive assuming not many missiles hit (ie: PGI said "half missile hit, so double the damage"). Before ECM you could maintain a lock easily, so LRMs were a potent long range weapon because they were guided, they were indirect, and they were extremely long range.
Then ECM dropped and LRMs became useless. People can argue about that assertion all they want, but the proof is in the fact that NOBODY used LRMs anymore.
Now people are using LRMs again, apparently (I haven't dropped in a couple patches). Why is this? Does the increase in damage due to missile pathing make them more potent? Has the lagshield removal made more missiles hit than previously?
Either of those explanations mean the "fix" is here to stay, so in any case the fix for LRMs is this:
1) Make ECM work more like TT: it blocks Artemis, NARC (teehee), and C3. C3 is the biggie for us; this means no shared targeting of an enemy ECM mech that is within 180M of the friendly "spotter". Lets increase this to 450M because PGI has a massive hard-on for ECM, and they won't neuter their favorite equipment that much. This WILL prevent indirect fire from spotters who are within the ECM bubble, protecting your ECM mech (and everyone nearby) from fire support intruding upon your brawl. But it will no longer make ECM a "turn off missiles" button. (We could also say ECM still kills Streaks, so PGI doesn't have to be bothered to balance Streaks.)
2) Reduce the damage for LRMs. An LRM15 does almost double the DPS of a PPC. That means your AS7D can carry four low-heat, indirect fire PPC's, and still have room left for two LL's and two AC5's. INSANE. Reduce the damage per missile to one. An LRM20 will still do double the damage of a PPC with longer range, indirect fire, better accuracy, and less heat, but it will be tied to ammo. Still a MORE than fair deal.
PGI seems to like to balance this game in a full-on rock/paper/scissors mode. In other words, if you have a Rock, you ALWAYS beat scissors, but ALWAYS lose to paper. This is NOT FUN, IMHO. Streak mechs should have a chance against ECM mechs, and non-ECM mechs should have a chance against SSRMs and LRMs. Building an always-win or always-lose system like we have now saps the fun out of the game. It's not about piloting skill, it's about getting into a lucky drop where nobody has the counter weapon to defeat you. If I wanted to play a random chance game, I'd go play blackjack, where at least I'm going to make money, rather than forking over a ton of it to stay competitive in MWO.
#42
Posted 09 March 2013 - 05:55 AM
ICEFANG13, on 08 March 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:
If the LRM boat is on the other side of the hill, then his Artemis guidance won't work. He has to come and get a line of sight to you to get the tighter spread by Artemis. At which point your team can kill him with ppc's, gausses, ac's and large lasers. Or he can keep shooting missiles without seeing you but then his damage is spread all over the place, no one-shotting whatsoever.
I think the Artemis-LRM's got both a buff and a nerf. They are more effective against stationary and slow mechs due to more focused damage. But on the other hand bigger spread in missiles would mean that at least some of them hit fast moving mechs. Right now, good pilots in fast mechs are virtually immune to LRM's.
#43
Posted 09 March 2013 - 06:00 AM
arghmace, on 09 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:
Yep, Artemis LRMs + TAG fly like steaks but hit mostly the floor when the light is competent.
Running behind cover won't work when my LRMs are already behind and tracking you. They just turn and hit anyways.
Edited by Stingz, 09 March 2013 - 06:01 AM.
#44
Posted 09 March 2013 - 07:03 AM
arghmace, on 09 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:
If the LRM boat is on the other side of the hill, then his Artemis guidance won't work. He has to come and get a line of sight to you to get the tighter spread by Artemis. At which point your team can kill him with ppc's, gausses, ac's and large lasers. Or he can keep shooting missiles without seeing you but then his damage is spread all over the place, no one-shotting whatsoever.
I think the Artemis-LRM's got both a buff and a nerf. They are more effective against stationary and slow mechs due to more focused damage. But on the other hand bigger spread in missiles would mean that at least some of them hit fast moving mechs. Right now, good pilots in fast mechs are virtually immune to LRM's.
We are talking about a Jenner here, light mechs, not "gauss and PPC then back" mechs.
Liquidx, on 09 March 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:
Down the hill, behind a bigger friendly mech or other obstacle would have been your best bet in this scenario. But since you were engaged with another enemy at the time and you had no ECM, the LRM guy had a nice spotter. Get rid of the spotter, or hang out near better cover, or get ECM.
The bumps and ridges along the top of the caldera are usually good cover - provided the enemy launching the missiles is on the other side of it. But really, the same thing would have happened to you if you had been hit by 2 gauss (provided clear los) so I don't think the problem here is LRMs.
I agree they should likely have a reduction in damage - but there is a good many things that need to happen before they get nerfed. It can be quite difficult to hold missile lock on someone, especially a light. Having a good spotter, or in this case, having you distracted by being engaged with the raven makes this much easier.
You're effectively talking about a 2v1 situation here.
LRMs make a 2v1 happen all the time, you don't know where the angle is or how many there is, its hard to be prepared for it if you don't know those things.
I don't think LRMs are extremely OP, but they do need to be nerfed in some way, as does ECM, as LRMs are so do or die right now, killing mechs lulzly fast but sometimes are worthless.
#45
Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:46 AM
#46
Posted 09 March 2013 - 03:26 PM
Don't forget light mechs do not have a lot of armor. 22 on a side torso isn't very much and lrms can do much more than that. So if you find yourself being taken out often by lrms, you are doing something wrong. Use cover, avoid visibility, and keep moving!
Edited by UbersAlterEgo, 09 March 2013 - 03:27 PM.
#47
Posted 09 March 2013 - 06:57 PM
Edited by Misunderstood Miscommunication, 09 March 2013 - 07:01 PM.
#48
Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:59 AM
arghmace, on 09 March 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:
If the LRM boat is on the other side of the hill, then his Artemis guidance won't work. He has to come and get a line of sight to you to get the tighter spread by Artemis. At which point your team can kill him with ppc's, gausses, ac's and large lasers. Or he can keep shooting missiles without seeing you but then his damage is spread all over the place, no one-shotting whatsoever.
I think the Artemis-LRM's got both a buff and a nerf. They are more effective against stationary and slow mechs due to more focused damage. But on the other hand bigger spread in missiles would mean that at least some of them hit fast moving mechs. Right now, good pilots in fast mechs are virtually immune to LRM's.
While that's correct and I agree to it, the problem I see here is the frustration that new players will have to endure when getting into this game. Like it has been said before: Even in a fully armored assault mech you won't survive more than 2 or 3 barrages if you happen to get tagged and have an Artemis boat on the other side with visual on you - and it would seem that most scout run a TAG currently, because of right that.
What I find more annoying though, is that even if you turn away from the missiles, they STILL hit you CT mostly, although you're facing them not head-on. It's as if they ignore your arm / side torso and pass right through it.
And although I might bruise a few feathers with saying this, but I still think that for a weapon that requires no real skill (since you only lock on, fire, repeat - a weapon for the "masses" - everyone can work with it) they do too much damage. There's no aim involved at all really. The only thing you have to do is fire when your target has no real cover so you hit.
Again, in competitive 8 man drop I've not seen any LRMs being used really, in normal 8mans you do encounter them. My concern is simply the ease with how you can shoot enemies into the stone-age, deal significant more damage than normal PPC builds while not having to do really anything but lock, shoot, lock, shoot, lock, shoot.
The counter argument that LRM boats are easy to kill is apparent, but again - I'm looking at it from a new player perspective - I play competitive personally, but not everyone does that and if you start a game, you should have at least a chance to try out different stuff with a learning curve, rather than being kinda forced to use the same stuff others use. Becoming a good pilot is pretty hard right now, I imagine.
After all, LRMs are supposed to be a "supportive" weapon, not a main weaponry which a lot of people seem to consider them now
Edited by Sturmwind, 11 March 2013 - 08:00 AM.
#49
Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:02 PM
ForestGnome, on 08 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:
Be smart, use cover. Know your surroundings, stay near your team, run recon
Im not one to start out with name calling... but Im just gonna bold all that and call you a straight-out dumbass... Way to stick with the majority crowd and try to disprove someone's findings with your half-******** contradictions...
1. Be smart, use cover - Hmm, lets think about this one. What the hell does that mean? You are referring to people not using cover. There is not always cover to be used.... especially when you are a light and having to spot and do the job you are supposed to. So being smart really has nothing to do with anything. No ****, use cover. Im sure that never crossed anyone elses mind... EVER... Not to mention, most cover is only on one side, possible two sides. Unless you found some super awesome hiding spot that has four walls, a roof, and a window that allows you to FPS play and duck back into the building and then push forward to shoot and then hide in the corner again, that is not always possible with multiple enemies coming in at different sides all game long.
2. Know your surroundings. That doesnt have much to do with anything. Eventually playing the game for awhile, you do learn your surroundings. But using that in the "punch-line" of your post is basically just going back to number one. Way to basically say the same thing twice in a row...
3. Stay near your team. Not always possible when some teams like to split up into groups of two or even singles and you have multiple groups running around. (You may think that is stupid, but its actually a nice strategy if the team pays attention and assists their teammates being attacked. Ive seen it work on numerous occasions to great effect against a well organized enemy.). So staying with your team is not always something you can do... And that still doesnt stop LRMs kicking your *** and your teams ***. Especially when being close together also now allows for any missed LRMs aimed at you to hit teammates instead and turn into some nice damage for the enemy.
4. Run Recon. Yes... thats what most lights do... Thats STILL doesnt not stop LRMs from hurting... Also, that little piece of advice is very contradictory to what you have previously stated... Running recon does not always insure that there is cover... It more often than not puts you in harms way. It also basicaly puts you on your own... contradicting what you said about sticking with your team...
Please think before you post. Let me point you to the first part of 1. BE SMART. Use a little brain power before trying to jump on the band-wagon to cut people down so you feel good about yourself.
P.S. I can guarantee a moderator or some such person with power is going to say something about my name calling. Technically it is not, if you put the information together with what I just said. Its pointing out a fact. Im tired of all these people thinking they can just defame other people because they think they are the ultimate MWO player. Sure, they arent actually using specific words to put someone down, but reading their entire post that has an attitude of talking down to people or naming scenarios that basically try to make the person they are responding to look like idiots, is exactly the same as name calling.
Edited by Misunderstood Miscommunication, 16 March 2013 - 03:02 PM.
#50
Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:45 PM
As an occasional artemis user, I have to say that I find the implementation of it very frustrating. Either it does very little to the flight path and isn't worth taking up 2-4 crits + tonnage, or it just becomes silly. It also seems to have a huge effect on LRMs, but SRMs I notice very little change- this might be becauase ECM completely nullifies Artemis when in range, and there's so much ECM though.
#51
Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:51 PM
#52
Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:53 PM
#53
Posted 16 March 2013 - 04:58 PM
If Lrms use it and they don't counter balance then lrms won't be able to kill anything.
#54
Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:26 AM
And it's not a 'just' OHKO on commandos, it blows off everything other than the cockpit and occasionally a leg when more than 15 missiles hit.
#56
Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:08 PM
LRMs have none of those problems, because they're guided!
At 400m (optimal range) the travel time is nearly negligible, not to mention sometimes you don't get an Incoming Missile message until very late. When tangled up in a fight it's very hard to find cover in time while dancing the mech in front of you.
Light mechs can't "stay with the team" and "use cover" if they're doing their best to "run recon" and TAG targets.
That 3L Raven on the other side is very fast to intercept and neutralise spotter scouts, that much is sure.
Finally, not all terrain has favourable cover. Think Alpine ... Caustic ... There are vast areas where line of sight is hard to break and missiles curve over the hills. It can be a real nightmare to scout. Sure there's some cover, but as if a Light is doing its job hiding in the same spot every time.
What if one day PGI made a map that is almost totally flat ...
#57
Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:00 AM
Kunae, on 07 March 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:
It's becoming very frustrating being just hammered by Artemis LRMs, currently. On a Jenner, I've been effectively 1-shot in many games since the patch,by Artemis-LRMs, with no time or possibility of evasion/escape.
On the other side, I was able to 1-shot a commando, with twin Artemis LRM 15's, + tag, as he was running just slightly off straight towards me, on my Treb-5N. Needless to say, he was a tad annoyed with that.
A splatcat can one-shot any of my medium mechs with 50 front armor and 40 internals. Welcome to the wonderful world of min-max-warrior-online.
#59
Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:24 PM
#60
Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:19 AM
Team Leader, on 07 March 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:
Sorry that I quote such an early post, but it serves my argument: LRM barrages are not only dangerous for lights, but also for mediums. A double lrm15-barrage can as easily take out my Hunchback or Centurion as it can take out a light.
So people tell me "get into cover" and they are absolutely right! But why would this only be plausible for medium mechs, while light mech players look for ways to survive these missile rainstorms out in the open?
Lights need to use cover to. If this is really complaining that you get shot in the open then it is no legit complaining in my honest opinion. There is simply no excuse. You can do that if you got ECM (but then there's still TAG) but otherwise you'd have to be careful, too. You simply have to!
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