60 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Ryokens leap, on 08 March 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Maybe it needs a tunnel or two. All the others but caustic have a tunnel or a gully, or both.

I actually think it would be cool to have a small cave system (not just a single tunnel) that branches with multiple openings through the mountains on alpine.

Edited by Noth, 08 March 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Its always amusing to me when people who are generally negative about something state their opinions as if they are facts. Always funny stuff. (that's not directed at the OP, or all who disagree with me and dislike Alpine btw...just the ones who do the above).

[OneEyed Jack]

Tactics, not strategy. There is no such thing as strategy in engagements of this size. Strategy, in this context, is for conducting wars, not individual battles, let alone the skirmishes that this game encompasses.

A larger map does not improve the tactical flexibility. The simple fact is that numbers matter and splitting up will generally just mean getting rolled in pieces. It's called "defeat in detail." The most basic tactic in the world is to divide and conquer and splitting up just means you're handing the first half to the enemy. The only thing the extra room adds is making it a bit easier for a partial force to sneak around in an end run for the the base and making it more difficult for a force playing defense to block it and maintain mutual support without actually sitting on the base. This adds some complexity, but not in what I would call a good way. Hopefully future game modes will make the extra room actually count for something positive. Going to E5 is the default not because of the time limit, but because going anywhere else risks that your opponent simply had a shorter route to you base as you took the long way around.

I officially call BS on each and every person that keeps touting the "balanced build" party line in reference to Alpine Peaks. Extremely long sight lines does not, in fact, encourage "balanced builds" unless your definition of "balanced" is synonymous with "long-ranged." In actuality it encourages unbalanced builds as much or more than a small map, but in the opposite extreme, as well as punishing not just slow mechs, but anything that isn't specifically fast. In reality it ends up coming down to a ridge fight as much as, or more than, Frozen because even the relatively fast heavies and slower lights can't move between cover fast enough to avoid getting crushed.

The kicker is that 12v12 will not really change any of this, since it's still not large enough numbers to perform actual tactical maneuvers without seriously compromising the holding force. And all the space to the sides of the sides will continue to go largely unused because, as I said, going the long way leaves you open to a base rush, and leaving defenders leaves you open to defeat in detail even more than on the smaller maps.

Conquest, I believe as actually a much better format for this large map, but desperately needs either increased resources needed for a win or slower resource gain (along with a linger timer) to keep it from revolving entirely around the scout-speed mechs. As it stands now, anything slower than ~100kph is pretty much redundant.

Edit: I forgot to add that I actually enjoy it despite all of the above. Except when my team gets screwed with no, or too few, fast mechs to cap or counter theirs.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 08 March 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[WVAnonymous]

I enjoy it. (The fact that I enjoy it is a fact...)

[Lorcan Lladd]

Oh, the basecamp/caprush map.
I like it better than River City Night.
A little bit.

[Escef]

OneEyed Jack, on 08 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

I officially call BS on each and every person that keeps touting the "balanced build" party line in reference to Alpine Peaks. Extremely long sight lines does not, in fact, encourage "balanced builds" unless your definition of "balanced" is synonymous with "long-ranged." In actuality it encourages unbalanced builds as much or more than a small map, but in the opposite extreme,

And you would be right if maps were selectable. But they are not. Your machine's load out is fixed before you know what your map is going to be. This has caused many players to put at least 1 or 2 token long range weapons on their machines. SRMcats mounting 10 LRM tubes at the cost of 12 SRMs are popping up. The recent heat changes and the presence/threat of Alpine is causing ER Large Lasers to proliferate (and ERPPCs to a lesser extent, though their new ECM countering ability is likely more to blame). People ARE revising their builds to allow longer range fighting or faster closing. It IS having an effect. And as we start getting more big maps I expect the effect to become more pronounced. Yes, SRMcats and 20cats will always be around. People will still boat medium lasers. But this will become rarer as time goes on. No one wants to be "that guy" who gets killed by massed ranged fire before he gets so much as a single shot off.

[Vrekgar]

Alpine changes the metagame.

Its a map where fast mechs, 100kph+ HAVE to scout. Its a map where long ranged weapons are crucial to succeed. Its a map where defending the base is always a priority.

With such sparse cover you dont have enemy mechs appearing within 270m all the time. This makes heavy brawler boat builds less of a threat on this map.

With such a large map it forces team work. Something that is sorely lacking in every other map.

[Ryokens leap]

Noth, on 08 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

I actually think it would be cool to have a small cave system (not just a single tunnel) that branches with multiple openings through the mountains on alpine.

I was thinking the same thing, maybe a rail line with junctions.

[Corwin Vickers]

It's like people haven't heard of actually using something other than the smallest engine they can fit in the biggest mech.....

Buy a light mech.

[p00k]

Escef, on 08 March 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

And you would be right if maps were selectable. But they are not. Your machine's load out is fixed before you know what your map is going to be. This has caused many players to put at least 1 or 2 token long range weapons on their machines. SRMcats mounting 10 LRM tubes at the cost of 12 SRMs are popping up. The recent heat changes and the presence/threat of Alpine is causing ER Large Lasers to proliferate (and ERPPCs to a lesser extent, though their new ECM countering ability is likely more to blame). People ARE revising their builds to allow longer range fighting or faster closing. It IS having an effect. And as we start getting more big maps I expect the effect to become more pronounced. Yes, SRMcats and 20cats will always be around. People will still boat medium lasers. But this will become rarer as time goes on. No one wants to be "that guy" who gets killed by massed ranged fire before he gets so much as a single shot off.

or they can just learn the maps

even on alpine, plenty of places to brawl and approach the standard sniping/lrm positions with cover. less cover, sure

[Tarman]

Ryokens leap, on 08 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

I was thinking the same thing, maybe a rail line with junctions.

That would be an interesting addition. Tunnel rat light fighting!

[Noobzorz]

I absolutely hate alpine.  It feels big and stupid and more drop dependent than any other map I can think of.
Conquest and you have no lights or mediums with ECM?  Well, then you lose.
Assault and you have no Atlas D-DC?  Well, then you lose.  etc. etc. etc.
It isn't balanced in any sense, and it doesn't mitigate the power that assault mechs or SRMs on fast mechs at all, but it tears the team with less ECM limb from limb in a way that no other map does.
I really don't care for it, and it definitely feels like one of those maps that they just made for us to play test, rather than one that has been iterated on.  When the novelty wears off, I expect everyone will hate it as much as I do.

Edited by Noobzorz, 08 March 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[Scratx]

I like Alpine but I'll like it way more once the bugfix for the non-rendering mechs at range goes in. I can't snipe or do good scouting if I can't see mechs beyond ~800m in that map.

[Oni Ralas]

As a LRM boating atlas - yes, yes I do. I provide bubbles to my buds and wait for one of the reds to come hopping down the bunny trail. If you're in the open...you're about to have a bad, bad day.

Pro tip: If you can see those LRM's spiralling, I can see you. That is your cue to get the hell under some cover. Or not... red is a very fashionable color for a torso this season.

[Budor]

Good games on alpine are rare. Its boring and frustrating and thats from someone that usually pilots 90+ kmh mechs.

[Corwin Vickers]

I do think the variety of maps will work to lessen specialized builds. I know if I'm on something balanced Alpine is no big deal.

That being said I was on Alpine a couple of nights ago with my brawler Stalker (5medlas 5 srm6Art). I rushed a ridge under fire with another guy. They had a bunch of guys sitting on top of that ridge laying down long ranged fire. The two of us proceeded to smash the living hell out of them. Sure beat all the ***** footing around that happens on frozen.

I'd like to see a team use scouts to figure out the enemy's path, set up on a high ridge with their mechs shutdown and actually have an honest to goodness ambush. This would be one of the few maps where something like this would work.

As it is scouts have forgotten how to scout in this game and any kind of higher tactics just aren't done.

[OneEyed Jack]

Escef, on 08 March 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

And you would be right if maps were selectable. But they are not. Your machine's load out is fixed before you know what your map is going to be. This has caused many players to put at least 1 or 2 token long range weapons on their machines. SRMcats mounting 10 LRM tubes at the cost of 12 SRMs are popping up. The recent heat changes and the presence/threat of Alpine is causing ER Large Lasers to proliferate (and ERPPCs to a lesser extent, though their new ECM countering ability is likely more to blame). People ARE revising their builds to allow longer range fighting or faster closing. It IS having an effect. And as we start getting more big maps I expect the effect to become more pronounced. Yes, SRMcats and 20cats will always be around. People will still boat medium lasers. But this will become rarer as time goes on. No one wants to be "that guy" who gets killed by massed ranged fire before he gets so much as a single shot off.

And you would be right if snipers and LRMs weren't perfectly viable on the "small" maps. Every single map int he game is very playable with these builds, and most sniper builds are just as good at short range as long. They may not have the total alpha of, say, an SRM-heavy build, but they will have a rather significant alpha all focused on 1 spot... or they're useless as snipers, too.

Go ahead, pick a map and tell me a sniper is screwed there? Any map.

Again, this does not encourage "balanced" builds. It encourages snipers and LRMs, because those builds don't really care much when they get dropped on another map. That is exactly the opposite of balanced.

[Nostram]

Love Alpine, very much looking forward to more + larger maps. Would love it if they would do a whole warehouse district type map with lots of building/cover. Would make LRM's & Sniping very difficult but great for hit and run and brawler types.

[Escef]

OneEyed Jack, on 08 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

And you would be right if snipers and LRMs weren't perfectly viable on the "small" maps. Every single map int he game is very playable with these builds, and most sniper builds are just as good at short range as long. They may not have the total alpha of, say, an SRM-heavy build, but they will have a rather significant alpha all focused on 1 spot... or they're useless as snipers, too.

Go ahead, pick a map and tell me a sniper is screwed there? Any map.

Given that I never said anything that contradicts this in the slightest, this entire paragraph is a red herring. All I said is that the close range brawler builds are becoming less optimal. I never said you can't effectively run an LRM boat or sniper on the other maps.

OneEyed Jack, on 08 March 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

Again, this does not encourage "balanced" builds. It encourages snipers and LRMs, because those builds don't really care much when they get dropped on another map. That is exactly the opposite of balanced.

I put forth that my experience has been very different from yours. Unfortunately, as we are not the devs, we do not have weapon usage data from the entirety of the user base to perform analysis upon. So at this point it is simply your observations versus mine. You are trying to put your observations into the context of the new map, just as the rest of us are. You appear to be in the minority here, but that is also not technically significant either. After all, those who post are actually a very small subset of the player base. Heavens forbid it, we could both be wrong, and the map has had no large scale effect on how people deck out their machines.

Edited by Escef, 08 March 2013 - 07:27 PM.

[XIRUSPHERE]

Even though 90% of fights happen at E4 I have had more fun on this map than any other. Even though it's huge I have had battles all over it and seen maneuvering and been victim of maneuvering that usually would not arise on the others. I think It gets so much hate because you can't just brawl your way through it and the current gen of games is all about instant gratification.