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Double Armor Again! / Make The Fights Last Longer (Let Me Explain Why)


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#141 Jace Lancer

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:24 AM

I believe there were multiple armor types, at least in mw2. Reactive for more efficiency against ballistics and reflective for lasers/energy. That might help against the current meta.

#142 Adrienne Vorton

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:31 AM

double armor again?

= everything that is not a high damage build is dead right away...not a solution, just translocation of the problems

weapon convergence must return being a factor, heat must have consequences (disturbances of the HUD at high heat levels, slower torso movement) , pilots should become a factor themselves (taking damage from constant high heat values), pinpoint accuracy of multiple weapons in the same location MUST be changed, recoil of high damage weapons as ac20, gauss and so on should throw your aim off slightly, as well as being hit by such ... and many many more i guess

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 17 April 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#143 Destructicus

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:31 AM

I was thinking about how matches are too short myself.
Like
What epic battle ever lasted only 7 minutes?
I think there only way to address this will be re-spawn game modes, which I'm very iffy about.
I like what they have going on now
How you have to stay alive because you know..
When you get blown up you get blown up.
I like how the penalty for dying is that you simply don't come back, so you have to try your best to stay alive.
Hopefully the re-spawn timer will be long enough of a penalty for people to actually want to stay alive.

#144 Zerberus

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:38 AM

Yes, double teh armor values again.

And then come back the week after and read all the whining about needing 8 tons of ammo per weapon, making teh benefit of doubling armor zero because anyone that needs ammo will hav to lose multiple tons to compensate. Non energy weapons will effectively cease to exist.

Not to mention the massive buff this would be to assaults and nerf to everyone else. The heavier you get, the more you benefit. Nobody should be able to take simultaneous alphas from 2 6ppc stalkers, but every Atlas not stripping their own CT would be able to do exactly that.

I fly an atlas and have no problem with using energy weapons, so be my guest :) :D

#145 LordBraxton

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:45 AM

All doubling armor would do is make 2-6ppc\gauss builds that much more Meta Apropos

#146 Tetatae Squawkins

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:53 AM

View PostZerberus, on 17 April 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Yes, double teh armor values again.

And then come back the week after and read all the whining about needing 8 tons of ammo per weapon, making teh benefit of doubling armor zero because anyone that needs ammo will hav to lose multiple tons to compensate. Non energy weapons will effectively cease to exist.

Not to mention the massive buff this would be to assaults and nerf to everyone else. The heavier you get, the more you benefit. Nobody should be able to take simultaneous alphas from 2 6ppc stalkers, but every Atlas not stripping their own CT would be able to do exactly that.

I fly an atlas and have no problem with using energy weapons, so be my guest :) :D



Because Increasing ammo per ton is impossible.

#147 MaddMaxx

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:17 AM

Quote

Fact is: as soon as you face another mech. If no one of you runs away (most don't since they are used to and WANT to fight) one of you will be dead in 20 seconds max.


Factually, (cough) BS (cough) and you were sorta doing Ok until then. Even a 5 v 1 will last longer than that given a decent Pilot and a properly driven machine. Win? Negative. 20 seconds max? Please.

#148 Darrien

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:26 AM

WIth the way it seems currently.... to me at least heat, weapon dmg, and armor are just fine. the issue is really a bit of manuverability not side to side as most if not all of the designs could not do that anyway. but accelerate and decelerate and teh turning. most of the things in the first teir that don't do any thing noticable. also it would be nice to do general targeting hits the target any location that is facing and specific targeting as it is done now would be looking down the selected weapon or location. i believe that it would be a much simpler fix. this would help both the tactical and feel of the game.

of course these are my thoughts ymmv

Edited by Darrien, 17 April 2013 - 11:59 AM.


#149 TexAce

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:39 AM

View PostZerberus, on 17 April 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Yes, double teh armor values again.

And then come back the week after and read all the whining about needing 8 tons of ammo per weapon, making teh benefit of doubling armor zero because anyone that needs ammo will hav to lose multiple tons to compensate. Non energy weapons will effectively cease to exist.

Not to mention the massive buff this would be to assaults and nerf to everyone else. The heavier you get, the more you benefit. Nobody should be able to take simultaneous alphas from 2 6ppc stalkers, but every Atlas not stripping their own CT would be able to do exactly that.

I fly an atlas and have no problem with using energy weapons, so be my guest :ph34r: :(


lol Really funny how most of you don't even read the OP text.

THE DOUBLE ARMOR IS JUST A CATCH PHRASE TO GET YOU TO READ THE DAMN POST NOTHING ELSE

If you would have read it, you would have realized that my opinion is NOT to double it, I just wanted to get the problem some observation and try to discuss what could be done.

#150 DeadlyNerd

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

What PGI needs to do is remove all the extra HPs they put in mechs just to make them upgradeable, and put size restrictions depending on the default loadout.

Then original armor values will have a meaning cause there wont be high damage pin point builds anymore, except the TT intended ones.

#151 PappySmurf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:50 AM

I agreee but sadly it would be just the begining of changes PGI should make to keep MWO from being another PUKE NUKUM. Posted Image

#152 Tragos

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:54 AM

If you double the reload time you turn it into brawler-warrior online, since you have PLENTY of time to close in after the enemy missed once. Dual AC20 to the face still will hurt.

#153 Ansel

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:58 AM

View PostAnsel, on 17 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Keep the armor sections and the point totals for those sections, weapons would then only deal damage in a footprint to those sections instead of dealing damage to the whole section.

Each weapon would then have it's own footprint, for example the AC-20 would have the largest footprint of the balistic weapons, and the MG having the smallest footprint, missle and spread type weapons would have very large footprints to go with their lower damage so they generate a lot of overlaping area damage, also making them better for splasing damage into areas that the armor was already breached.

If this were implimented fights would take quite a while longer, so I would probly drop armor point totals to 125-150% of TT values instead of 200%.


Yay, quoting myself. >.> feels strange.

#154 Erasus Magnus

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:00 PM

View PostTexAss, on 09 March 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:



the game already progressed to far to make everyone "hey you know how to run to the other side of the map and get a beacon and come back, try not to be seen".

Fact is: as soon as you face another mech. If no one of you runs away (most don't since they are used to and WANT to fight) one of you will be dead in 20 seconds max.

THAT's why I don't like.




I do the same to others with my brawlers and ppc snipers, my K/D ratio is far in the green land (and no I don't use a splatcat).

Of course I expected narrow minded people like you to say exactly that.



Hell I already know how to kill most mediums and lights with one alpha of my 8R.
When everybody starts doing that we don't have mechs anymore, we have paper-mechs. You could also just replace all mechs with humans.


i think thats the consequence of the timeline being 3050 and not 3015/3025. if it were 3025 we wouldnt have the problem. single heatsinks, badshit targetting devices, no ER weapons and so on would make for some awesome low tech fights.

it will only accelerate with clan tech and then the next wave of is tech (RACs and stuff like that).

my best suggestion so far is to implement heat penalties to give big energy weapons a more risk to their reward.

#155 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:06 PM

View PostErasus Magnus, on 17 April 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:


i think thats the consequence of the timeline being 3050 and not 3015/3025. if it were 3025 we wouldnt have the problem. single heatsinks, badshit targetting devices, no ER weapons and so on would make for some awesome low tech fights.

it will only accelerate with clan tech and then the next wave of is tech (RACs and stuff like that).

my best suggestion so far is to implement heat penalties to give big energy weapons a more risk to their reward.

I would kill for a "Low-Tech" Succession War "expansion" to this, with cone of fire over twitch accuracy to represent the duct tape nature of mechs. I still say the Mouse accuracy is a bigger problem for game balance than almost anything else. Considering all the variables involved, (and the fact they added convergence, which is contradictory of the pin point targeting otherwise in game) the pin point accuracy of the Mouse is what imbalance the game most. I minute amount of targeting slop would cause the pros to howl, but also make the fights last a LOT longer. 100 tons of metal moving in humanoid fashion, over uneven terrain will not have 100% rock solid aim, no matter how hard you try. (The targeting system would require flawless predictive logic to accommodate and even then the servos would have to actually re-aim the weapons)

Poptarts and HexStalkers and GaussAPults suddenly not the 100 meter boogey men people find them to be today.

#156 Ansel

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:13 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 17 April 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

I would kill for a "Low-Tech" Succession War "expansion" to this, with cone of fire over twitch accuracy to represent the duct tape nature of mechs. I still say the Mouse accuracy is a bigger problem for game balance than almost anything else. Considering all the variables involved, (and the fact they added convergence, which is contradictory of the pin point targeting otherwise in game) the pin point accuracy of the Mouse is what imbalance the game most. I minute amount of targeting slop would cause the pros to howl, but also make the fights last a LOT longer. 100 tons of metal moving in humanoid fashion, over uneven terrain will not have 100% rock solid aim, no matter how hard you try. (The targeting system would require flawless predictive logic to accommodate and even then the servos would have to actually re-aim the weapons)

Poptarts and HexStalkers and GaussAPults suddenly not the 100 meter boogey men people find them to be today.


Na, pinpoint accuracy isn't what is causing the imballance in the game.

Its the use of the outaded battletech paperdoll that is suppoded to be used with a RNG system that causes imballances in the game.

#157 Homeless Bill

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:15 PM

Usually, I'm not for massive changes like this, but I do agree to an extent. Doubling armor is one of the best anti-canon decisions they ever made, and I don't think they'd be wrong to do something like that again. Maybe not quite double, but some upward adjustment would benefit the game. I think upping it too high would over-nerf alpha builds and buff DPS builds too much (coming from a guy who runs DPS builds almost exclusively).

High alpha doesn't always win the day, but the more coordinated a team is, the harder it is to counter. And when 12v12 comes, I can only imagine how fast coordinated groups will be able to melt people.

#158 Black Templar

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:18 PM

Op's proposal could easily be tested on a PBE (Public Bete Environment) but since we have none....

#159 MorbidGamer

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:25 PM

What they need to do is double current armor or half weapon damage. Add twice the ammo per ton to compensate.
Sucks pretty bad playing an Assualt mech only to have your chest armor blow off in 2 volley's... From cannon, PPC and laser boats.

#160 Ansel

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostMorbidGamer, on 17 April 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

What they need to do is double current armor or half weapon damage. Add twice the ammo per ton to compensate.
Sucks pretty bad playing an Assualt mech only to have your chest armor blow off in 2 volley's... From cannon, PPC and laser boats.


View PostAnsel, on 17 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Keep the armor sections and the point totals for those sections, weapons would then only deal damage in a footprint to those sections instead of dealing damage to the whole section.

Each weapon would then have it's own footprint, for example the AC-20 would have the largest footprint of the balistic weapons, and the MG having the smallest footprint, missle and spread type weapons would have very large footprints to go with their lower damage so they generate a lot of overlaping area damage, also making them better for splasing damage into areas that the armor was already breached.

If this were implimented fights would take quite a while longer, so I would probly drop armor point totals to 125-150% of TT values instead of 200%.


Problem solved, unless a shot is placed close enough to overlap into an already damaged area it will always hit fresh armor.





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