20 replies to this topic

[Rojolobo]

There should be an option to lock arms to torso.

[Cyberassassin]

Agree.

[Elder Thorn]

i don'T exactly need it, but same as some other features, it would be a nice to have

[Strum Wealh]

From Dev Q&A 05:

Quote

What, if any, mechanic will be in place to prevent a large group of single-type weapons from devastating a single location, a problem that has plagued just about every incarnation of MW to date? –Thomas Hogarth

[DAVID] We’ve got a few systems in place to handle that problem. One is having weapons such as lasers do damage over time so that, in order to deliver full damage to a single location, you have to hold your fire on the location, which can be difficult when you and/or your target are moving.

Another consideration is the separate arm and torso aim reticles. They will naturally line up with each other but, whenever you aim, you’ll lead with your arms while the torso catches up. This means that, if you want weapons in both locations to hit the same spot, you’ll have to hold your shot until they all aim at the same point.

An additional aspect of our aiming system is weapon convergence. I touched on this in a post I made in reply to Dev Blog 5, but some of you may have missed it so I’ll copy it over here:
Basically, your targeting systems are always trying to adjust the angle of your weapons so that they converge or focus at a distance of whatever your aiming reticles are pointing at. So, if you fire at a target very far away, your lasers (or whatever else) may fire nearly parallel to each other; firing at a target up close will angle the shots inwards. However, the adjustment of these angles is not instant.
For instance, if you were facing a building, while taking cover right up against it, your convergence would adjust to hit just a short distance in front of you (the distance to the building). When you step out from around that building and fire on an enemy in the distance, your convergence point would automatically begin to adjust, but not instantly. If you shoot too soon, your first shots may converge and cross a short distance in front of you and completely miss the enemy as they pass on either side of him. Or perhaps you were aiming for the centre torso and hit his arms instead, as your aim adjusts towards his centre.

As noted above, the Devs are aware of precisely what would happen if the arm-mounted and torso-mounted weapons were locked to the same reticle... and why that scenario is something to be avoided.

[FrostCollar]

This option is coming soon, apparently:
http://mwomercs.com/...15#entry2031415

[Zyllos]

Strum Wealh, on 08 December 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

From Dev Q&A 05:As noted above, the Devs are aware of precisely what would happen if the arm-mounted and torso-mounted weapons were locked to the same reticle... and why that scenario is something to be avoided.

Yup, if what your saying is what they were thinking, then they have back tracked on their own explanation on why not to add it, again (see Coolant Flush).

Edited by Zyllos, 09 March 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[FerretWithASpork]

This is already being added.

[Wintersdark]

I can't imagine actually wanting this, but it's coming anyways. It's no different than than pointing your arms at what you want to shoot at and waiting for your torso to catch up, except you don't have the opportunity to fire your arm weapons earlier.

You do have weapons in different groups, right? And understand that there are options other than leaning on your Alpha Strike key?

[Strum Wealh]

Zyllos, on 09 March 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Yup, if what your saying is what they were thinking, then they have back tracked on their own explanation on why not to add it, again (see Coolant Flush).

Indeed, I did notice that.

So, who want's to guess at how many - or, rather, how few - people would intentionally leave Arm Lock disabled...?

Though, the Command Chair post doesn't explicitly specify how this might affect tracking - presumably, the combined reticle would move at the speed of the torso and be likewise limited in terms of rotation and elevation?

[warner2]

Strum Wealh, on 09 March 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Though, the Command Chair post doesn't explicitly specify how this might affect tracking - presumably, the combined reticle would move at the speed of the torso and be likewise limited in terms of rotation and elevation?

Indeed, that was my assumption. To me this means that both modes are useful then for obvious reasons, so all that's left is deciding which to default, which might be on a per-chassis basis (e.g. non locked before for brawling, locked better for range?).

I'd actually prefer the toggle button to toggle it in-game with a single press. So if default is not-locked, pressing the button once in-game would lock it. Press it again to unlock it. That's more useful to me than a press and hold button.

[Wintersdark]

Strum Wealh, on 09 March 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Indeed, I did notice that.



So, who want's to guess at how many - or, rather, how few - people would intentionally leave Arm Lock disabled...?

Though, the Command Chair post doesn't explicitly specify how this might affect tracking - presumably, the combined reticle would move at the speed of the torso and be likewise limited in terms of rotation and elevation?

Seriously, maybe I'm just an *****, but I honestly can't understand why someone would want to lock them? Obviously, the reticule will end up moving at torso speed and firing angle, as you said (they're not going to speed it up, that would be ridiculous)... So it's all loss locking your arms in, no gain. The torso reticule will match up to the arms now, unless the arms are pointed outside it's range of motion of course.

I'm just... baffled.

Edit: I should add, I certainly don't mind the presence of such a setting - it's no skin off my back, as it's nothing but a disadvantage.

Edited by Wintersdark, 09 March 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[SirriusLee]

I dont have an issue with arm lock(I am ok with the way it is now) but I would like to be able to move the arms independantly.I remember in MW4 the arms could swing out left or right while the torso remained facing front.(not all mechs however,since some mechs dont have normal arms,like the catapult)

[kiltymonroe]

FerretWithASpork, on 09 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

This is already being added.

Thread was started back in December.

Wintersdark, on 09 March 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Seriously, maybe I'm just an *****, but I honestly can't understand why someone would want to lock them? Obviously, the reticule will end up moving at torso speed and firing angle, as you said (they're not going to speed it up, that would be ridiculous)... So it's all loss locking your arms in, no gain. The torso reticule will match up to the arms now, unless the arms are pointed outside it's range of motion of course.

I'm just... baffled.

Edit: I should add, I certainly don't mind the presence of such a setting - it's no skin off my back, as it's nothing but a disadvantage.

Newbies will like it because it's less confusing in a game that already has a steep learning curve for anyone that hasn't played a Mechwarrior game before.

Snipers will like it because it makes convergence easier.

Players piloting 'mechs with no arm weapons will like it because there's no need for that circle to be flying all over the HUD.

[Adridos]

kiltymonroe, on 10 March 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Newbies will like it because it's less confusing in a game that already has a steep learning curve for anyone that hasn't played a Mechwarrior game before.

Snipers will like it because it makes convergence easier.

Players piloting 'mechs with no arm weapons will like it because there's no need for that circle to be flying all over the HUD.

And boats will like it, since doing a headshot will be easier than ever.

[Donas]

kiltymonroe, on 10 March 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Newbies will like it because it's less confusing in a game that already has a steep learning curve for anyone that hasn't played a Mechwarrior game before.

Snipers will like it because it makes convergence easier.

Players piloting 'mechs with no arm weapons will like it because there's no need for that circle to be flying all over the HUD.

Adridos, on 10 March 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

And boats will like it, since doing a headshot will be easier than ever.

These are both valid points. Any time a new feature poll is added, I try to weigh the balance between 'levelling the playing field/useability' and 'meta exploit danger'. This one seems to lean in the favor of the meta exploit. I'm no ace pilot, but the arm:torso reticules was very easy for me to get the idea of, and it takes very little in the way of practice and patience to get the hang of it.

It has the general feel of an 'easy mode' button to me, and thats a poor idea. People are going to miss. Its not the end of the world. You re-aim, fire again, and move on. If anyone is that concerned with their shot accuracy, they should be taking their time to line up their shots beforehand anyway. So I fail to see the need for this at all.

'Easy mode' toggles are a slippery slope. Best not to walk out onto it at all, rather than trying to recover and backtrack later.

[Wintersdark]

This absolutely does not make your shots more accurate. It's exactly the same as things are now, when you wait for your torso to match up with your arms.

This doesn't make it easier to be a sniper, or for boats - it's exactly the same, because your torso will move to your arms anyways. It only limits you.

I understand how it could indeed simplify things for a new player, not having two reticules, and there is value in that... but for anyone else, if this improves your play (and you're not using a different type of controller) it's only improving your play because you're terribly bad. Simply point your arms at what you want to fire at, and your torso will match up. The only difference that this makes is that it your arms won't get there faster than your torso.... but you'll end up with your arms/torso pointed at the same spot in the same amount of time either way.

You just surrender the ability to fire your arm weapons sooner (and thus potentially kill faster/prevent your opponent from damaging your teammates), and the ability to fire at targets outside of your torso weapons arc of fire. You gain nothing.

Edited by Wintersdark, 10 March 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Wintersdark, on 10 March 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

This absolutely does not make your shots more accurate. It's exactly the same as things are now, when you wait for your torso to match up with your arms.

This doesn't make it easier to be a sniper, or for boats - it's exactly the same, because your torso will move to your arms anyways. It only limits you.

I understand how it could indeed simplify things for a new player, not having two reticules, and there is value in that... but for anyone else, if this improves your play (and you're not using a different type of controller) it's only improving your play because you're terribly bad. Simply point your arms at what you want to fire at, and your torso will match up. The only difference that this makes is that it your arms won't get there faster than your torso.... but you'll end up with your arms/torso pointed at the same spot in the same amount of time either way.

You just surrender the ability to fire your arm weapons sooner (and thus potentially kill faster/prevent your opponent from damaging your teammates), and the ability to fire at targets outside of your torso weapons arc of fire. You gain nothing.

What is gained is for the ability for certain 'Mechs - most notably, "natural" direct-fire boats like the HBK-4P, Yen Lo Wang, CPLT-K2, CTF-1X, CTF-3D, Ilya Muromets, and AWS-8Q, and eventually the JagerMech and Blackjack variants and coming Clan 'Mechs like the Black Hawk - to consistently focus all their firepower in all of their hardpoints in a single location at any range nearly-instantaneously (as much so as convergence speeds allow), rather than waiting to have the torso catch up to "line up the shot".

The trade-off is that everything is limited to the tracking speed of the torso, as well as being limited to the rotation and elevation limits of the torso.

As noted above, the dual reticle system was one of the measures put in place specifically "to prevent a large group of single-type weapons from devastating a single location", or to at least mitigate the ability to do so - a response to a situation that was acknowledged as a "problem" by the Devs themselves.
The ability to lock the arms to the torso removes that mitigating factor, and is thus seen as a step toward reintroducing the "problem" of very highly focused damage and "finger of death" builds/scenarios.

[General Taskeen]

Leaving the arm lock off still means the arm has great movement range than the torso, and thus can make maneuvering shots that 'arm lock-on' can not.

Edited by General Taskeen, 10 March 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[Vallyn]

Strum Wealh, on 10 March 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

What is gained is for the ability for certain 'Mechs - most notably, "natural" direct-fire boats like the HBK-4P, Yen Lo Wang, CPLT-K2, CTF-1X, CTF-3D, Ilya Muromets, and AWS-8Q, and eventually the JagerMech and Blackjack variants and coming Clan 'Mechs like the Black Hawk - to consistently focus all their firepower in all of their hardpoints in a single location at any range nearly-instantaneously (as much so as convergence speeds allow), rather than waiting to have the torso catch up to "line up the shot".

The trade-off is that everything is limited to the tracking speed of the torso, as well as being limited to the rotation and elevation limits of the torso.

I can only see this being a benefit for mechs like the Cicada 3M where there are no weapons in the arms, or for new players. It would in fact be a disadvantage for a 4P - you lose the extra range the arms allow you to have in tracking targets especially on uneven terrain.

It wouldn't help with an alpha as you'd still be limited to the slower torso recticle speed - which is what you're waiting for anyways before you fire.

For a good pilot there is no way this is a benefit, as they will have learned to manage independant aim & convergence anyways.

[Dirus Nigh]

This would not be an in hindrance at all. Just look at builds like stalker, catapult, cicada and jenner. All of their arm mounted weapons are already torso locked. They can boat lasers and ballistics that already converge on a single point. This is what makes them devistating boat builds.

Giving the option to lock arms on other mech only serves to lower the level of skill from the game. This is dumbing down the game. IT makes me want to support posters who want convergence either removed.

However I think a convergence system that is very similar to battlefields shot spread would be better. Again with this change to the game I think it would be more of a necessity. The Battlefield games have a mechanic that widens the spread of the weapons based on movement. Walking, running, turn, and even crouching and standing lesson the accuracy of the weapon.

This would make the players speed more of a factor when lining up accurate shots. It would force a player to slow down, or stop to really have a chance for their weapons to converge their focus for an accurate shot.