17 replies to this topic

[MadSavage]

My name is Savage and I am a member of CSJ Beta Galaxy. I've played many 8-mans and participating in the two main leagues running for this game, so I speak from experience in reguard to this game. There are several issues that have become relevant in the last patch and I'd like to propose some potential fixes.

Good things:
-Current armor values are adequate.
-Current engine restrictions are acceptable.
-Current mech hitboxes are fitting.
-ECM is not OP.
-Laser weapons are fine, though slightly skewed towards the larger ones.

Concerning 'ballistic-projectile' weapons:
-Reimplement fire delay as a client-side feature for some ballistic weapons.
-Increase UAC/5 jamming chance in ultra mode as now there is no reason to 'tap' the fire button.

Concerning missile weapons:
-LRMs need a sizable buff to the point where they're effective but not primary weapons.
-SRMs are adequate, however their damage does not justify the downsides they have in terms of range and spread.

Concerning 'PPC-projectile' weapons:
-Implement a 'charge-up' sequence for ppcs as an extended fire delay relative to ballistics.
-Dramatically reduce heat capacity for all mechs (~50%) and proportionally double heat dissipation.

I appriciate constructive criticism.

[yashmack]

LOL
no, do not put the firing delay back on ballistics
I dont know of a single gun that doesnt fire as soon as you pull the trigger...
they finally fix it and you want it back?
ridiculous...
I also do not agree with your request to increase jam rate on UAC 5, that is also ridiculous it jams enough when you just hold down the key!

missiles are on a temp nerf for a bug fix, they will be restored and buffed again

PPC concerns, just no...
there is no reason to increase rate of fire on a PPC

you requset for changes to heat would break the game and make it much less fun

worst suggestions ever

[Lukoi Banacek]

MadSavage, on 17 April 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

My name is Savage and I am a member of CSJ Beta Galaxy. I've played many 8-mans and participating in the two main leagues running for this game, so I speak from experience in reguard to this game. There are several issues that have become relevant in the last patch and I'd like to propose some potential fixes.

Good things:
-Current armor values are adequate.
-Current engine restrictions are acceptable.
-Current mech hitboxes are fitting.
-ECM is not OP.
-Laser weapons are fine, though slightly skewed towards the larger ones.

Concerning 'ballistic-projectile' weapons:
-Reimplement fire delay as a client-side feature for some ballistic weapons.
-Increase UAC/5 jamming chance in ultra mode as now there is no reason to 'tap' the fire button.

Concerning missile weapons:
-LRMs need a sizable buff to the point where they're effective but not primary weapons.
-SRMs are adequate, however their damage does not justify the downsides they have in terms of range and spread.

Concerning 'PPC-projectile' weapons:
-Implement a 'charge-up' sequence for ppcs as an extended fire delay relative to ballistics.
-Dramatically reduce heat capacity for all mechs (~50%) and proportionally double heat dissipation.

I appriciate constructive criticism.

PPC's aren't imbalanced.

Why do ballistics deserve ANY delay at all? I'm confused by that bit.

I think your concerns are based on the lack of effectiveness of Missiles providing the Rock to the other weapons' paper/scissors and PGI is already working to tweak those....this just happens to be that in between period in regards to balance.

Until Missiles are "reintroduced" I vote no to any changes to ballistics/lasers. You shouldn't add variables when you haven't gotten to the perceived baseline yet. Once all three weapons types are where PGI thinks they need to be "initially," then look at the game holistically and make recommendations for tweaks.

What you're suggesting right now would just jumble the mess that much more potentially.

[matux]

MadSavage, on 17 April 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Concerning 'ballistic-projectile' weapons:
-Reimplement fire delay as a client-side feature for some ballistic weapons.
-Increase UAC/5 jamming chance in ultra mode as now there is no reason to 'tap' the fire button.

Oh god.... You know what this screams? "I live in america with a lower ping than the rest of the world, now they have balanced the ballistics for the rest of the world, people can hit me..."

They change that, you watch this forum burn with white hot rage from everyone with a ping of 120+, I'd even bet MC on it!

Edited by matux, 17 April 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[yashmack]

his profile says he is in the US so I doubt his ping is high unless he is misrepresenting his location...

[MadSavage]

I disagree, PPCs are imbalanced. The lack of fire delay means you don't have to lead by much. They also have a 2000 m/s projectile speed which further reduces the difficulty in aiming. The fact that you can carry six of these weapons on a mech without having to worry about heat issues and leading the target is the problem.

I understand that my profile says I live in the United States. I live in the state of Maine, which is ~3000 miles from Vancouver, so I get 70-120ms ping times, similar to players based in Europe, chiefly Britian. I believe the past patch eliminated PPC delay from players of all regions. Reimplementing it client side would make sure the delay is the same for everyone and the improved HSR mechanics would still be in place.

[Tennex]

wait for highlander fad to pass first. and by next month when the blackjack comes out and people forget about the highlander.

we will see.


if people still swarming poptart builds by then. there is a problem. nerf Highlander's effectiveness when on 1 jump jet. (its way too effective. all you relaly need for pop tarting is one.)

Edited by Tennex, 17 April 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[MadSavage]

matux, on 17 April 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Oh god.... You know what this screams? "I live in america with a lower ping than the rest of the world, now they have balanced the ballistics for the rest of the world, people can hit me..."

They change that, you watch this forum burn with white hot rage from everyone with a ping of 120+, I'd even bet MC on it!

In table top, not all of your weapons hit the same location of a mech. They do in MWO, meaning that disproportionately high alpha builds are extremely effective at eliminating enemy mechs. Losing both side torsos in a hunchback at the beginning of a fight to 3 PPC + Gauss highlander or 6 PPC stalker is getting very annoying. Yes, I'm sure I could get an AC20 shot in edgewise, but overall the high-alpha-minimum-exposure-time builds are nuillifying lighter mechs where they are taken out in the period of one alpha.

Tennex, on 17 April 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

wait for highlander fad to pass first. and by next month when the blackjack comes out and people forget about the highlander.

we will see.


if people still swarming poptart builds by then. there is a problem. nerf Highlander's effectiveness when on 1 jump jet. (its way too effective. all you relaly need for pop tarting is one.)

I'm not saying to nerf the highlander's effectiveness, I'm saying that new problems have surfaced with certain builds since the last patch. You would never build a stalker that boated 6 PPCs in TT, so why should you here? If MWO is a representation of BT, then it's core gameplay mechanics should be structured around the fact that some things are just not possible or effective as more generalized builds.

The highlander will no doubt be an effective mech. We see Jagers replacing K2s, so obviously a majority of players have moved to the new design. It will always be used as a jump sniper, and that will be reflected in the many games to come.

Edited by MadSavage, 17 April 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[MadSavage]

yashmack, on 17 April 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

PPC concerns, just no...
there is no reason to increase rate of fire on a PPC

you requset for changes to heat would break the game and make it much less fun

worst suggestions ever

It seems you misunderstood what I said...a delay - charge up - would decrease rate of fire and force the player to lead his target. Now that movement mechanics have been fixed, a fire delay would be reasonable.

My suggestions concerning heat would do nothing to break the game. Halving the capacity would force energy boats to chain-fire their weapons and not alpha them due to penalties of overheating. The double dissipation rate however makes up for the lack of capacity. The combination of these two things forces the pilot to be more aware of his heat situation than he currently is.

[MischiefSC]

Don't like the ballistics changes. Ballistics are finally balancing out pretty well, I'd hesitate to change anything on them.

I do like the heat suggestion. It very effectively deals with boating alpha builds.

The problem is that poptarting, due to a lack of cockpit shake, is very effective right now when combined with high-alpha designs. Cockpit shake on JJs plus either the recommended heat changes (or even just a TT style penalty for being over heated) would resolve a LOT of the games issues right now and push it back towards an actual Battletech style game.

The real question is, is that what PGI wants? What sort of sacrifices are worth making to broaden the games appeal? Are these good sacrifices to make and is that broadened appeal going to pay off in the long run?

[sj mausgmr]

Keep ballistics as they are now, look into PPC's

There is no doubt that a 2000 M/S weapon with infinite ammo, the 3rd highest damage transfer to target on strike, coupled with a faster refire time than all similar weapon systems, is the better choice in the game currently.

Edited by sj mausgmr, 17 April 2013 - 07:44 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Ignoring the majority of OP and going straight to the bottom...

Decreasing heat capacity and increasing dissipation would help encouraging non-alpha builds.
Now I'm not saying half and double, but some minor tweaks might be in order.

I do understand that the current cap of 30+heatsinks is actually an attempt to follow TT rules in a real-time environment, but changing it to say 10+(how much you dissipate in 5s) and then giving heatsinks a straight up dissipation buff might be a good way to go.

Right now you need too much dissipation (heatsinks) to be able to keep even a moderate weapons loadout (TT-wise) cool.

[Dracol]

No to firing delay. My ping average is 60. Been using ppcs since closed beta. It was extremely frustrating having a perfect shot lined up while moving to cover, only to have it hit the wall cause it didn't fire when the trigger was pulled.

[yashmack]

any delay in firing is just ludicrous...

[Brilig]

MadSavage, on 17 April 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

In table top, not all of your weapons hit the same location of a mech. They do in MWO, meaning that disproportionately high alpha builds are extremely effective at eliminating enemy mechs. Losing both side torsos in a hunchback at the beginning of a fight to 3 PPC + Gauss highlander or 6 PPC stalker is getting very annoying. Yes, I'm sure I could get an AC20 shot in edgewise, but overall the high-alpha-minimum-exposure-time builds are nuillifying lighter mechs where they are taken out in the period of one alpha.



I'm not saying to nerf the highlander's effectiveness, I'm saying that new problems have surfaced with certain builds since the last patch. You would never build a stalker that boated 6 PPCs in TT, so why should you here? If MWO is a representation of BT, then it's core gameplay mechanics should be structured around the fact that some things are just not possible or effective as more generalized builds.

The highlander will no doubt be an effective mech. We see Jagers replacing K2s, so obviously a majority of players have moved to the new design. It will always be used as a jump sniper, and that will be reflected in the many games to come.

I agree with just about everything you said up there. However I don't think a fire delay would really help any of it. The issues we are having with poptarts, boating, and alpha strikes are all related to the current convergence mechanic.

You touched on it up there when you said "In table top, not all of your weapons hit the same location of a mech." That is the core issue right there, and that is what I think needs to be fixed. Hopefully without a random number generator.

I've been suggesting this.

Alpha striking/boating is an issue because you can put a lot of damage on a single armor section in one shot. Increasing heat to counter alpha striking boats would harm cannon builds like the Hunchback 4p. Cone of fire adds a frustrating random number generator over player skill. Note there is nothing wrong with alpha striking, or boating. It's weapons having perfect convergence that makes alpha boats an issue.

My suggestion to "fix" that would be to change the cross hair system around. You can keep things skill based, and avoid pinpoint damage issues from convergence.

For instance here is what the Hunchback 4Ps cross hairs could look like.

That would keep the weapons from having pinpoint convergence, without the random number generator frustration. Each torso based weapon or weapon grouping could have its own cross hair. Nothing too extreme, but enough to spread the damage around. People can keep alpha boats, but they aren't quite as devastating.

[shabowie]

One Medic Army, on 17 April 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

I do understand that the current cap of 30+heatsinks is actually an attempt to follow TT rules in a real-time environment, but changing it to say 10+(how much you dissipate in 5s) and then giving heatsinks a straight up dissipation buff might be a good way to go.

They could also have just made the heat capacity 30, with the heat from firing weapons absorb into the system over time just as it dissipates over time, say a 10 second period.

[HereticalPsycho]

Brilig, on 17 April 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

My suggestion to "fix" that would be to change the cross hair system around. You can keep things skill based, and avoid pinpoint damage issues from convergence.

For instance here is what the Hunchback 4Ps cross hairs could look like.

That would keep the weapons from having pinpoint convergence, without the random number generator frustration. Each torso based weapon or weapon grouping could have its own cross hair. Nothing too extreme, but enough to spread the damage around. People can keep alpha boats, but they aren't quite as devastating.

I actually like this system since you can still alpha sections of your weapons like the hunchback example. Line your hunch weapons up, alpha those then line you torso and arms and alpha those. With slight adjustments in aiming you could still fire all your weapons at a target would just require slight cross hair alignments in between. Not sure how practical but its a neat/quirky solution

[RainbowToh]

Ballistics are tough to use already, especially for folks with higher than average ping. They are heavy n needs ammo, pls dont nerf them anymore

Maybe they can reduce the PPC speed now they have resolve HSR n netcode some. The increase in projectile speed was a response to that. Maybe they can buff up its heat alittle more. BUT THEN AGAIN, what the LL n PPCs we have now are exactly what we ask for during closed beta, mainly better heat/damage ratio.