32 replies to this topic

[Shifty Eyes]

So, is there some seceret to using autocannons? I've never really used them, but I've recently decided to try out some ballistic builds (because they make awesome noises), but I haven't had much luck with getting decent damage consistently. I finally started pulling off a consistent 150 average damage per match, which isn't absolutely horrible, but I get an easy 300+ with my medium brawler builds and even my lights.

Just seems like they are awfully heavy for their damage output (taking into account the difficulty of aiming), even for the popular AC/2 and UAC/5. Energy weapons seem feather-weight in comparison, even with the required heat sinks, and deliver plenty of punch.

Or, I just really suck at aiming, and it's taking me over a week to really get the hang of it. That's a perfectly sound possiblity.

Just thought I'd get some feedback from others' experiences with ballistics.

[Royalewithcheese]

Yeah, autocannons are super heavy. They (with the exception of the AC2) have awesome heat/damage ratio, though, so they're good for prolonged brawls. There's definitely a trade-off there, and IMO they don't make sense on every robot that can mount them because of that tonnage problem. What are you running them on?

[Inappropriate1191]

You need practice. Ballistics are, ton for ton, the weakest weapons in the game, but they are great 'griefer' weapons and for rounding out builds (At least, in my experience.). If you're going for ballistic builds, you're going to need at least a heavy mech. Boomcats, Cataphracts, and Atlases. If you insist on medium builds, Hunchback 4H is probably the best for rolling out a ballistic medium, though some people swear by the Centurion builds because they're better candidates for XL engines.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

For Gauss, AC20, and AC10, take close to 30 rounds. That means 2 tons AC10, 3 tons Gauss, or 4 tons AC20. The AC10 you can do more. Lighter ACs need a lot more ammo in absolute terms, which means you still want 2-4 tons per gun (AC2 needs less, UAC5 needs more).

Having plenty of ammo means you can take more shots since missing won't hurt quite so much. Taking more shots means you'll eventually start landing more shots, at which point your damage will climb.

The real key to using ballistics well is to pick one and learn it. Acclimate yourself to the trajectory, projectile speed, etc. and you'll see your accuracy rise. It's a lot harder to do that when using a variety of ballistics, so I do recommend learning one at a time.

[Utilyan]

if you got multiple same kind balistics sometimes its best to chain fire them. Sometimes the shake, visual and audio can demoralize a person when its continous.


I'd like to know what mech your using, Cause I know in a phract you could end up shooting the ground more then targets if your not mindful of your suroundings.

[ragingmunkyz]

No it isn't just you...you're mostly right on the money.

Not to say the ballistics are useless, but they don't seem to be on the level of missiles and energy weapons. They're definitely harder to aim, they always weigh more, plus they require ammo which is more tonnage and likely to blow up. With some precision aiming they can be deadly accurate, and the fact that each shot has incredibly low heat means you can fire them with impunity and not fear the dreaded overheat. Ultimately, I feel the cons really outweigh the pros in most situations, but in a few cases they are definitely worth taking. You will need to be more patient in learning to aim them, but once you get the hang of it, they can still be great weapons.

Breaking them all down:

UAC/5's are nice, but that jamming issue can be quite annoying to deal with, and maybe its just my **** luck, but I always feel like they jam at the exact moment I need them not to. AC/5's give you more reliability, but at the cost of a great deal of dps.

AC/20's are great, but with the incredibly prohibitive weight, you can usually only fit one, and when you can fit two, there isn't much weight for other things. When you can fit one though (atlai, and cats usually) they are wonderful weapons, especially in brawls where you can fire frantically and not budge the heat scale. Probably my personal favorite ballistics weapon, I love these things.

AC/10's (either one) are, IMHO, buy and large useless because why take one when for two more tons you can have the AC/20 and for 3 more you can have a Gauss. If there were a bigger tonnage gap that would be more likely to allow you to fit two of them, they'd be much better weapons, but more often that not you'll be picking between one of these or one AC/20 or a Gauss, AC/10 is usually going to lose that one.

I know you said autocannons, but Gauss are in the ballistics family so I'll add them in. Gauss are great for sniping, but have that nasty habit of blowing you to bits, and PPC's are half the weight. Still an awesome weapon, and if you hang back and learn where the head hitboxes are (use training grounds) you can quickly end an enemy mech's match.

I haven't tried AC/2's yet so I can't speak to how good or bad they might be.

Machine guns...well look look around the forums and you'll find a dozen or so threads on just how worthless they tend to be.

So there you have it. Only a few choices that are really worth picking, and unfortunately they all come with more drawbacks than their energy and missile brethren. I like to use them occasionally for varieties sake (usually Gauss and AC/20's), but on several mechs that ballistics hardpoint just sits unused, especially the lower you go on the weight scale. I hope they get some sort of buff that doesn't make the battletech canon crowd to mad, whether it be a increased damage or decreased weight. I really want to use them more, but it's often hard to justify.

Edited by ragingmunkyz, 12 March 2013 - 08:37 PM.

[Allister Rathe]

ragingmunkyz, on 12 March 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

AC/10's (either one) are buy and large useless because why take one when for two more tons you can have the AC/20. If there were a bigger tonnage gap that would be more likely to allow you to fit two of them, they'd be much better weapons, but more often that not you'll be picking between one of these or one AC/20, and the AC/20 is usually going to win that one.

AC/10's are not useless by any stretch of the imagination and your logic is a little flawed. Not only do you get double the ammo per ton using an AC/10 over a 20 (7 for the AC/20 and 15 for the AC/10) you also get over double the range (the AC/20 has an effective of 270 and a max of 810 compared to the AC/10, which has a 450/1350 range) for two less tons and significantly less critical slots. There are a lot of 'Mechs that have ballistic slots that just plain can't mount an AC/20 because of the whopping 10 criticals it needs.

The AC/10 is like a poor man's Gauss Rifle. If you want a long range, decent damaging ballistic weapon but don't have the space for the 15 ton monster Gauss or the space for the 10 slot AC/20, the AC/10 is the perfect weapon. I actually find it's my favorite out of all of the ballistics, because it has the best balance of damage, tonnage, space, heat, and rate of fire when compared to the other weapons.

Edited by Allister Rathe, 12 March 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Silentium]

I am not too good with them either, but some of the difficulty is because ballistics are tracked server side. Don't move your reticle until the shell is out. I have missed many times because I move before the shot registers; it can really throw you off.

[SweetWarmIce]

• Autocannons require investment before you start getting returns. They are heavy, ammo dependent and your ammo can explode and kill you. However they aren't too taxing on your heat and easily outrange missles and lasers. The trick is to just practice, practice and practice some more. Spend some time in the training grounds and get used to them.

Once you have a feel for the firing delay and projectile's travel time you'll be landing shots without even thinking about it. Also keep track of how much ammo your're using, if you are constantly dying with ammo remaining consider dropping off some and putting the weight towards more armour or a bigger engine.

Autocannons are mostly restricted to being main weapons so build your mech around them rather then the other way round. Medium Lasers and Small Lasers are great backup weapons for their weight. Ammo can be stored in the torso sections with CASE or legs if you have plenty of armour on them. The standard 10 heatsinks should be adequate.

AC/2 and AC/5 are best used for sustained suppression. Flanking will give you the best chance for this.

AC/10 and AC/20 are best for hit-run and firing from cover. I recommend going for CT shots with these things.

Ultra AC/5 is good for all situations, especially when used in groups. The jamming can be off putting for most people.

LBX/10 is basically a shotgun, either close in or pick big targets to get the most pellets hitting. It's great on armourless sections. I've killed my fair share of Atlase with point blank blasts.

Note: People bag the AC/10 for it's weight but it's great for mid-range general purpose. It's hits hard, you get a decent amount of ammo per tonne, it's easy on the heatsinks and you can laugh as you peg that splatcat outside his missle range.

Edited by SweetWarmIce, 12 March 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[Rusty Shackleferd]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 12 March 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

The real key to using ballistics well is to pick one and learn it. Acclimate yourself to the trajectory, projectile speed, etc. and you'll see your accuracy rise. It's a lot harder to do that when using a variety of ballistics, so I do recommend learning one at a time.

I agree with Levi statement in that you need to "learn" how to aim for each ballistic. If you like to play the sniper, I would recommend the quad AC2 on a CTF-4X. At range you should just group fire all of them together. Should you need to cool down but want to add extra damage to your target, chain fire your cannons. Pack enough ammo and you can go to town grinding away at everybody... or at least practice scratching paint off mechs.

Although, there are obvious pros and cons for the AC2, learning how to aim and lead with the AC2 will help you master another formitable ballistic - the PPC. Visually they look nothing like each other, however, the AC2 round and the PPC bolt travel at the same rate - 2000 m/sec.

Having mastered these two weapons, I have to admit I find it difficult to use Gauss Rifles and other ballistics.

[Spheroid]

You need to stick with the trusty AC-20 backed up by medium lasers. Its possible you are not getting good shots off from the inherrent convergence issues of the other guns.

Edited by Spheroid, 12 March 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[SensualBubblegumX]

I love me UAC/5s They have a really sweet rate of fire and they build up little heat, but as Ragingmunkyz said they tend to jam at the worst possible time. Although everyone has their own style, back in MW 4:merc I laid down the Pain with Rotary ACs so I just have a soft spot for ACs.

[Escef]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Autocannons out DPS every energy weapon except for the PPCs, and tend to be a lot cooler running.

EDIT: Also of note, the AC2 projectile travels at the same speed as a PPC bolt. Meaning you can use the AC2s high rate of fire to spot for your PPCs. Once you start hitting with the AC2 you know how much to lead the target, and can open up with PPCs without wasting the time and heat sinks.

Edited by Escef, 12 March 2013 - 08:32 PM.

[Elizander]

Utilyan, on 12 March 2013 - 07:56 PM, said:

if you got multiple same kind balistics sometimes its best to chain fire them. Sometimes the shake, visual and audio can demoralize a person when its continous.


I'd like to know what mech your using, Cause I know in a phract you could end up shooting the ground more then targets if your not mindful of your suroundings.

This is true. I've had Stalkers and Atlases armed with LRMs and PPCs back off when I just constantly spray them with 2-3 LB10X at long range. Heck, I even got 3 mechs to back off since the spread was hitting all of them at once.

Currently have a D-DC with 2 LB10s and my Muromets is packing 3 with 3 small lasers. Still have some latency issues (@300) but average damage is around 300 as well for the Muromets and around 500ish for the Atlas.

Edited by Elizander, 12 March 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[ragingmunkyz]

Allister Rathe, on 12 March 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

AC/10's are not useless by any stretch of the imagination and your logic is a little flawed. Not only do you get double the ammo per ton using an AC/10 over a 20 (7 for the AC/20 and 15 for the AC/10) you also get over double the range (the AC/20 has an effective of 270 and a max of 810 compared to the AC/10, which has a 450/1350 range) for two less tons and significantly less critical slots. There are a lot of 'Mechs that have ballistic slots that just plain can't mount an AC/20 because of the whopping 10 criticals it needs.

The AC/10 is like a poor man's Gauss Rifle. If you want a long range, decent damaging ballistic weapon but don't have the space for the 15 ton monster Gauss or the space for the 10 slot AC/20, the AC/10 is the perfect weapon. I actually find it's my favorite out of all of the ballistics, because it has the best balance of damage, tonnage, space, heat, and rate of fire when compared to the other weapons.

Fair enough, I'll concede the point that when you can't fit a gauss or an AC/20, the AC/10 can be a good choice.

I have not yet personally encountered this problem, so I tend to go with the gauss or the '20, and I still think that if you can choose one of the other two, you'll be better off. You yourself call it a "poor man's gauss," but I feel like its in a strange middle ground between the other two weapons, and I usually know if I need the range or I need the brawling punch, so I pick the one that is best for the job.

I just don't feel like the minor drop in weight or the minor spike in range makes up for the advantages of the other two, but these are just my personally opinions on the matter, you're welcome to yours.

[ElliottTarson]

ragingmunkyz, on 12 March 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Fair enough, I'll concede the point that when you can't fit a gauss or an AC/20, the AC/10 can be a good choice.

I have not yet personally encountered this problem, so I tend to go with the gauss or the '20, and I still think that if you can choose one of the other two, you'll be better off. You yourself call it a "poor man's gauss," but I feel like its in a strange middle ground between the other two weapons, and I usually know if I need the range or I need the brawling punch, so I pick the one that is best for the job.

I just don't feel like the minor drop in weight or the minor spike in range makes up for the advantages of the other two, but these are just my personally opinions on the matter, you're welcome to yours.

Honestly give me an AC/10 over a Gauss any day. Faster firing rate, only 5 less damage and, for me at least, much easier to put shells on target. My Founders Hunch w/ an AC/10 & 3 ML pulls at least 600-700 damage a match, easy. I tried it with an Gauss, and meh. Just not my cup of tea.

ETA: Been running a CTF-2X w/ an AC/10, 2 SRM4 and 2 ERPPC, just finished a match with 1132 damage.

Edited by ElliottTarson, 12 March 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Hammerfinn]

The big problem with ballistics right now is that while Lasers have state rewind, ballistics do not. Therefore, you still have to deal with a bit of lagshield, beyond the travel-time for the projectile. It's hard to aim them, and lead distance can vary throughout the match. They're totally worth it, though, lots of pinpoint damage for not much heat.

[BarHaid]

Something to consider with the AC/2, however, is heat. This is the one ballistic that can cause you to shut down. An AC/2 by itself is almost useless. Two or three on chain fire is continuous DAKKA, and your heat can spike quickly if you don't pay attention. I'm a Cent pilot, and learning how to lead targets well with an arm-based gun takes a while. But it does develop eventually. I'm favoring the AC/10 over the AC/2 right now, just for the heat issues, but with enough heat sinks, the DPS of the AC/2 is quite fine.

[Shifty Eyes]

Hey guys, awesome responses. Thanks a ton!

I did fail to mention what kinds of mechs I was trying out, which was silly of me. The first one I got was the Cataphract 4x. I tried a few different combos, including 4x AC/2 and 2x AC/5 + 2x AC/2, plus some others. I don't know if it was the low maneuverability (I couldn't afford to invest in an XL engine), or not being used to playing with larger, more-oft targeted mechs, but I never got my damage up. Plus, like someone pointed out, the low arms made it hard to use cover without pelting the ground.

You guys will laugh, but I picked up the Cicada 3C to see what I could do with it. I've messed around with 2x AC/2 or 1x UAC/5 plus a large laser. This build is actually super fun, but I'm not sure if it's all that useful. I've had a few good matches. Later, if I still like it, I'll probably sell it and pick up the ECM cicada and rock a single UAC/5. I'm planning on picking up a Hunchback (1x ballistic shoulder) or a K2 soon to try them out.

I did notice that AC shots are server-side, with a slight delay between the trigger and the shell leaving the muzzle. I think that's a large part of what was throwing me off. I hope they change it to state rewind eventually.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement! I'll keep practicing, because I still love ballistics and I love their awesome noises. And above all, they're a ton of fun.

EDIT: grammer

Edited by Shifty Eyes, 12 March 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[CMGrendel]

Hammerfinn, on 12 March 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

The big problem with ballistics right now is that while Lasers have state rewind, ballistics do not. Therefore, you still have to deal with a bit of lagshield, beyond the travel-time for the projectile. It's hard to aim them, and lead distance can vary throughout the match. They're totally worth it, though, lots of pinpoint damage for not much heat.

I was under the impression that state rewind affected game code, rather than just one specific weapon usage instance.