51 replies to this topic

[Seox]

I'm just having a really hard time feeling that this idea was very well thought out at all; An idea like yours, Xeno, at least seems to focus the fixes you would prefer to make. One of the things I haven't yet seen well addressed by people who want convergence changes is how it would hit ranged builds. It's hard enough to hit with PPCs/gauss at extreme ranges against moving targets accurately (yes, you can hit them, but can you repeatedly peg their left torso while they're varying speed/direction/jump jetting?) and convergence changes will hit them hardest.

I've seen the "set convergence once in the mechlab", but this still hurts them far, far worse than close ranged weapons. Close ranged weapons may be sighted for 270m, but at 50m the convergence spread won't matter, at 150m it'll be close enough, etc. There's range between the max and min effective ranges isn't huge.

Take a look at the ERPPC on the flip side - you could calibrate it for 600m and be taking shots at 1200m. The difference is massive, and if the shots took reasonable skill before, they are now not feasible. You've just obsoleted an entire style of combat - direct ranged combat - with one thoughtless change. This creates balance ripples that don't need to be there, which means that the change very poorly examines and takes balance into account. There is virtually no reason to make a change like this in the face of any alternatives at all, especially when the current system best advocates player skill within reasonable bounds.

Until the indirect implications of a system like this are worked out, there is absolutely no reason to implement it - and that's if the premise is even correct.

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Zyllos: With many discussions on convergence of weaponry, has there been any discussions on why/why not more variability should be added to weapon fire, thus spreading the damage more across a target?

A: We’ve removed randomness from weapon firing in favor of skill.

Edited by Seox, 22 March 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Link firing your weapons to utilizes (exploit) perfect convergence is not skill.
landing the hit requires the skill and why people think LRMS are face roll.
This needs to be remembered when discussing this topic.
people don't agree that all or nothing damage is suficant for good game balance.

Currently the number of weapons being fired has no affect on accuracy. people see this as broken.
if they disagree and think its fine, then pop tarting snipers or 6 ppc stalkers or 6 x srms becomes the apex of skill.

Its not about people liking or not liking getting hit. its about geesh i just got into this game and now my CT is half gone.
game balance favors the boater thus broken.

The source material (TT) has a random ish hit determination. it heavily favors hitting the ct. all mech values where originaly taken from that point, but that means it needs to be completely rebalanced in the context of perfect convergence. something that is not present in TT.

As a mech moves and bounces around things can be moved out of alignment.
As a mech heats up to the point where its going to explode if not shut down cause materials to expand. posably pushing things out of alignment. perfect convergence is artificial.There is a reason sniper weapons are single round. even under perfect conditions at some distance you get bullet spread.

Just spread linked fired weapons a modest amount and keep single shots perfect. no ones asking for world of tanks accuracy.

[Seox]

Tombstoner, on 22 March 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Link firing your weapons to utilizes (exploit) perfect convergence is not skill.
landing the hit requires the skill and why people think LRMS are face roll.
This needs to be remembered when discussing this topic.
people don't agree that all or nothing damage is suficant for good game balance.

Currently the number of weapons being fired has no affect on accuracy. people see this as broken.
if they disagree and think its fine, then pop tarting snipers or 6 ppc stalkers or 6 x srms becomes the apex of skill.

Its not about people liking or not liking getting hit. its about geesh i just got into this game and now my CT is half gone.
game balance favors the boater thus broken.

The source material (TT) has a random ish hit determination. it heavily favors hitting the ct. all mech values where originaly taken from that point, but that means it needs to be completely rebalanced in the context of perfect convergence. something that is not present in TT.

As a mech moves and bounces around things can be moved out of alignment.
As a mech heats up to the point where its going to explode if not shut down cause materials to expand. posably pushing things out of alignment. perfect convergence is artificial.There is a reason sniper weapons are single round. even under perfect conditions at some distance you get bullet spread.

Just spread linked fired weapons a modest amount and keep single shots perfect. no ones asking for world of tanks accuracy.

I don't really feel there's an argument to be made anymore; see the quote at the end of my last post. They seem to 100% agree with what I'm saying; implementing this craps on skill and tends towards a system that has the same end result that an RNG based system would. I admire them for keeping the game pure and preserving the spirit of competition that lesser games abandon.

[Cyke]

The quote from Brian Ekman is not relevant to this discussion; the suggestion involves no randomness whatsoever.

There are other posts in the middle of the thread that suggest using randomized inaccuracy and cones of fire, but the suggestion in the initial post does not.

[Pht]

Tombstoner, on 22 March 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

The source material (TT) has a random ish hit determination. it heavily favors hitting the ct. all mech values where originaly taken from that point, but that means it needs to be completely rebalanced in the context of perfect convergence.

What's really screwed up is not just the lack of convergence - it's the fact that the mechs in this game don't perform anything at all like their fictional counterparts in the lore, in regards to their weapons handling.

MWO is treating BTU battlemechs like they were all battle armor. Essentially the 'mech you're piloting has only the most pitifully small influence on the firing equation.

I thought we wanted to pilot 'Mechs in combat... not play anther variant of wolfenstein3d.

Bryan Ekman, on 22 March 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Zyllos: With many discussions on convergence of weaponry, has there been any discussions on why/why not more variability should be added to weapon fire, thus spreading the damage more across a target?

A: We’ve removed randomness from weapon firing in favor of skill

What a shame that the developers either don't realize ... or worse... even care... that it's not "randomness" that they've removed in favor of player skill ...

They've removed the 'Mech's combat capabilites with its weapons and thus given us not a MW video game, but yet another FPS.

I am even beginning to suspect that they haven't even discussed the topic with those that maintain and have to know the technical end of the lore. It's like they're using the lore to couch their own game in, which has very little to do with the how the actual fictional 'Mechs work in said lore.

Edited by Pht, 24 March 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Tombstoner]

People also mistake RNG vs. skill. It takes skill to place rounds on target down range. fire spread is present in all weapons, yes even lasers go look it up.

"Zyllos: With many discussions on convergence of weaponry, has there been any discussions on why/why not more variability should be added to weapon fire, thus spreading the damage more across a target?

A: We’ve removed randomness from weapon firing in favor of skill"

I also think this topic is moot. Partially from the above quote. The remainder from a lack of alternatives presented to the beta community. Every good FPS i have ever played had the RNG/cone of fire in some form or another. Planet sides2 uses it heavily for weapon balance and from what i have seen all modern console games. removing randomness might favor skill
but it heavily favors boating in a disproportion way to the detriment of game balance.

If PGI views pop tarting and 6 ppc stalkers or spat cats as the apex of skill. I'm not sure where to go from here.

[Karl Streiger]

Pht, on 24 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

They've removed the 'Mech's combat capabilites with its weapons and thus given us not a MW video game, but yet another FPS.

I am even beginning to suspect that they haven't even discussed the topic with those that maintain and have to know the technical end of the lore. It's like they're using the lore to couch their own game in, which has very little to do with the how the actual fictional 'Mechs work in said lore.

Started a poll here: http://mwomercs.com/...aiming-atpart1/
just 10 voters...but at the end it goes directly in the direction i thought.

Based on the final results we have to consider a to hit propability for the CT or RT of an Atlas as 60%. so without adressing convergence just too get near the "right" feeling you need to increase armor of some mech hit locations by factor of 4 with base is TT.

But again I don't think anything would happen.

[Prezimonto]

So instead of a fixed convergence point, split the difference... allow weapons to converge onto a single point, but make it take a half a second or a second to calibrate the many ton weapons. It will allow for stationary or nearly stationary mechs to get off good shots, but a moving mech will not be able to pull large alpha's in most situations.

A PPC, ballistics, or lazer boat will then need to relatively stay still for a longer period, and consequently be more vulnerable.

Edited by Prezimonto, 25 March 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Prezimonto, on 25 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So instead of a fixed convergence point, split the difference... allow weapons to converge onto a single point, but make it take a half a second or a second to calibrate the many ton weapons. It will allow for stationary or nearly stationary mechs to get off good shots, but a moving mech will not be able to pull large alpha's in most situations.

A PPC, ballistics, or lazer boat will then need to relatively stay still for a longer period, and consequently be more vulnerable.

I have no proof, but i think the devs explored this option and discarded it in favor of what we have now:perfect convergence.
if you consider the convergence point to be a focal point, if you moved from targeting the ground to targeting something in the distance say as you crest a hill. if you fire too soon its possible for all weapons to converge very close to the firing mech and have all your shots criss cross right in front of a stationary target, a huge game play issue in my book.
If this happened all the time i think it would ruin the quality of the immersion and thus the game. people would think, this is stupid. Then leave the game not bothering to learn to play. The solution was to set the focusing rate to extremely high levels and move on to other issues and get a product that's making money, thus we have what we have.

[Prezimonto]

I think a very little AI/fore-thought would solve those "hill" issues in a great majority of cases.
Have the mech default to the convergence range of a target, and not crosshair position, this would give a good reason for ballistic/laser boats to take advanced sensors and/or BAP as well.
Have the mech recognize terrain like hills and set a default convergence of ~100 to 200. Some non-zero value that can scale upwards or downwards relatively quickly.

[Pht]

Prezimonto, on 25 March 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

So instead of a fixed convergence point, split the difference... allow weapons to converge onto a single point, but make it take a half a second or a second to calibrate the many ton weapons.

While this wouldn't fully or accuratly represent the combat capabilities of the battlemechs in the lore ... it would at least be a step up.

[Cyke]

Tombstoner, on 25 March 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

If PGI views pop tarting and 6 ppc stalkers or spat cats as the apex of skill. I'm not sure where to go from here.

Oh dear..