81 replies to this topic

[Sagamore]

RVN 3L since his SSRM damage is being amplified between 420% and 620% against the commando.

Source: http://mwomercs.com/...results-inside/

[Nathan Foxbane]

Raven almost every time. Commando just does not have the armor to take that kind of punishment. If both stayed in Disrupt the whole time, the Raven has the armor and the extra lasers to outlast the Commando easily and the two are too closely matched in terms of speed and maneuverability to really disengage quickly to take advantage of terrain.

[stjobe]

Sagamore, on 13 March 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

RVN 3L since his SSRM damage is being amplified between 420% and 620% against the commando.

Source: http://mwomercs.com/...results-inside/

I was just about to post the exact same post.

Do watch the video of a single SRM-6 one-shotting a stock Commando from the rear (8 armour +16 internal structure) and from the front (16 armour +16 internal structure). Yes, that's a single shot from a SRM-6 doing at least 32 damage instead of the 15 it should be doing.

Edit: I just confirmed it for myself in the Training Grounds by firing triple SSRM-2s at a stock COM-1B. The first salvo took the 1B to 75% damage (so it did 56 damage instead of 15) and the second salvo killed the 1B outright.

Edited by stjobe, 13 March 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Asmosis]

when max speeds are equal, the heavier mech has a better chance of winning. Doesnt matter what the chassis involved are.

[badaa]

DialUpRanger, on 12 March 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

COMMANDO 2D Build:
ECM
3x Streak 2
1 Medium Laser
XL 200


RAVEN 3L Build:
ECM
3 Medium Laser
2X Streak 2
XL295

Who would win in a 1 v 1 situation and why?

no one

[Kraven Kor]

Carrioncrows, on 13 March 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

What cookie cutter "Maneuvers"?

What skills are you talking about, is there a magic I take no damage button I missed.

Evasive action is pointless as the missiles can't be outran nor can they be evaded, short of operator error on the aggressor's part, "firing at a mech taking a corner" they are not going to miss.

This is not entirely true.

A really good light pilot, and I have seen them, can purposefully run streaks into opponents by getting an opponent between themselves and the streak firing mech. They can use terrain to break lock or cause missiles to hit turf. They can use unexpected and erratic turns (particularly using jump jets) to cause streaks to miss.

They do, in fact, miss. My accuracy with them is listed as 67%.

Being a successful light pilot, even in the ECM + Streak variants, takes some unique skills that do not really pertain to other weight classes. Believe me, else I would just jump in a Raven 3L and :win: which is -not- what happens.

[stjobe]

Kraven Kor, on 14 March 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

A really good light pilot, and I have seen them, can purposefully run streaks into opponents by getting an opponent between themselves and the streak firing mech.

While I wouldn't call myself a "really good light pilot", this is an essential skill for a light pilot to master; not only against missiles but against any enemy fire. Make them hit your target instead of you and that target will go down that little bit faster.

It works for LRMs (hide close to the enemy Atlas on the opposite side and the LRMs will hit the Atlas instead of you) and it works for any direct-fire weapon.

[Amigoid]

stjobe, on 13 March 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

As someone who's a self-proclaimed Commando lover (1000+ drops), I'd say that the Raven has all the advantages in this fight.

It's basically the same fight as Commando vs Jenner before the Raven (and ECM) was introduced.

The Raven/Jenner is 10 tons heavier, sports more weapons and armour, and it's faster.

Over say 100 fights, the Raven/Jenner would win the vast majority of them (assuming 1v1 and equal pilot skill).

That actually highlights one of my main gripes with the current incarnation of MWO: 'Mechs at the top of their weight class are always better than the lighter ones in the same weight class.

Once the matchmaking ELO accounts for weight class, the smaller mechs in the class will find their niche.
As it stands now, you just run 6 ECM Atlases and 2 ECM lights.

[stjobe]

Amigoid, on 14 March 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Once the matchmaking ELO accounts for weight class, the smaller mechs in the class will find their niche.

No they won't. Elo does not change fundamental facts about engine limitations, weapon and armour payloads, and the like.

As long as all the 'mechs in the same weight class has the same engine limitations, the heavier 'mech will be the better since it can be just as fast as the lighter.

Edit: And here's another reason the 3L will always win, its SRMs are doing over 12 points of damage each:

Paul Inouye, on 14 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Interesting and very thorough testing by the OP and many kudos for the in-depth write-up.
This problem has 2 levels.

First is that Testing Grounds has quite a few issues when reporting damage and the numbers you're seeing are inflated quite a bit (almost double). We will be addressing this bug and others as Testing Grounds matures over time.

Second, this does NOT eliminate the findings that S-SRMs AND SRMs are doing more damage than intended. This is not due to some top secret, behind your back weapon balancing. It has to do with splash damage, how it was first implemented and the new smaller Mechs coming out.



Here is one of the scenarios described and I've turned on the debug tools to let us see exactly what is going on in terms of hits and damage being done.

The Raven 3L has just fired 1 volley of 2 x S-SRM2 at the Commando 1B. As you can see, the amount of damage done to the Commando does not make sense. There is a total of 51.5 armor being stripped off the Commando. We've been able to reproduce this repeatedly and we're getting an average damage of 12.9 per missile. Quite a bit higher than the intended 2.5 damage per missile plus splash damage.

So what has happened to cause this? Smaller Mechs and more complex geometry than what was available when the splash damage system first went into the game. When SRM splash damage went into the game, there were a total of 4 Mechs available to the playerbase. The Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult and the Atlas. These 4 Mechs have very unique targeting silhouettes and were used to calculate the radius of splash damage per missile. Now what has happened is that the splash damage across smaller Mechs or Mechs with more complex/tighter component positioning are getting hit with more splash damage than intended.

In the image below, you can see how much overlap the damage done to the Commando has and how that it is taking significantly more splash damage than it should.



We are looking at the tuning for these hit locations/splash damage and will update as soon as possible.

Edited by stjobe, 14 March 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Meanwhile On Namek]

You know Havok for someone who is such a expert on light battlemechs, I couldn't help but remember that all 3 times you faced me 1 on 1 against my Commando 1B in your spider and your Raven, that the only reason you didn't die is because when things quickly turned bad for you against me, you ran with your tail between your legs and you had two of your goon buddies jump in and save you and you then gang attacked my Commando 3 on 1. All 3 times it happened, and all 3 times it was the same two mechwarriors. You are a coward and a troll Havok, I have faced you in 7 different matches and had you on my team in one match and never once have I seen you take down a enemy mech in single one on one combat, that is how pathetic of a joke you are as a mech pilot. You may have leet skills, but you certainly don't have leet skills *wink wink*. Now then, when you want to stop gooning and actually show some actual fighting abillity as a warrior and stop having your buddies save you every time you face my commando one on one, I will take you on 1 on 1 in my Commando any day of the week, but we both know you wont win not in any spider, and when it comes to a raven, even with the most powerful Raven you will have only a 5% chance of defeating my Commando and that is due to the fact that I have seen how good of a shot you are with direct fire weps as opposed to homing weapons and I know that with direct fire weapons you are the worst shot that I have ever seen, which is why you use streaks on your raven and you have streaks on one of your Spiders and machine guns, and it is sad because you couldn't even hit me with your machine guns! If you did challenge me to a batchall I would force us to both fight without outside help and no homing weapons in light mechs of our choosing, and you know what, both me and Jetsun, all we gotta do is look at my weapon accuracy stats in my profile regarding energy weaponry and then look at your accuracy stats in your profile and what weapons you prefer and it won't take anyone 5 seconds after looking at both of our accuracy stats in our profiles for them to figure out who would win that circle of equals, it would be me. Now then, with that being said, Jetsun, for the last time, these guys are goons, they aren't like us, they have no skill, they can't win in a equal fair fight one on one, THEY AREN'T WARRIORS! STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ON THEM! Dude you are above this, I can tell by your words that you get it and they don't, stop wasting your energy on them. Moderators please close this thread please so that Havok and his goon buddies will stop trolling actual mechwarriors, talk is cheap people, if you want to settle an argument then settle it in a mech we are mechwarriors, this isn't the view, settle disagreements on the battlefield as real warriors, fight a batchall do whatever floats your boat. I am not wasting my time on this in the forums anymore, if you all wanna settle this disagreement then how about me and Jestun face Havok and one of his goon buddies and we see whos right and whos wrong? I am willing to fight for what I believe in are you three?

[Ryllen Kriel]

I voted for the Commando on the fly, but I'd likely change my vote for the Raven after giving it a few more seconds thought. Mostly I voted more for the Commando because it has more Streaks. But the hit boxes on the Raven are bizarre and favor survivability more than the Commando. Honestly, a mech with a ten ton advantage should have the advantage though. Pilot skill aside...okay "skill" considering all you have to do is not overheat and shut down and keep a lock on your opponent and fire off your Streaks. I still like both mechs, I just put standard issue dumbfire SRMs on them instead of Streaks if I buy a 2D or 3L.

[p00k]

has anyone confirmed the srm thing outside of training grounds?

cuz i mean, training grounds is weird in its own way. minimap bugging out much more often, blue squares for missing trees in the distance, thermal vision on caustic still being the yellow-green ambient color, etc

[stjobe]

p00k, on 18 March 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

has anyone confirmed the srm thing outside of training grounds?

cuz i mean, training grounds is weird in its own way. minimap bugging out much more often, blue squares for missing trees in the distance, thermal vision on caustic still being the yellow-green ambient color, etc

Yes, it's been confirmed on live both by players and the devs. As a consequence, splash damage is being removed in the April 2nd patch.

[Carrioncrows]

Why is splash damage in the game to begin with?

There is no infantry, there is no nukes so what the heck?

Seems like a overly complicated addition to the game that essentially mucks it all up.

A weapon either hits the location or doesn't hit the location.

SRM's and LRM's hardly explode with enough power to produce the type of spash radius they are showing. If it was an Arrow IV round, yeah I could see that.

But seriously?

[Gaan Cathal]

RiceyFighter, on 12 March 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

I think both mechs are cheese because they rely on streaks and ECM. I would think the Commando would win just because it takes more skill than raven...

Er, no? Commando has to aim 1/4 of his armament, the Raven has to aim 3/5 of his. Ergo Raven requires more skill, since everything else between the two is equal (speed, JJ, etc).

The Raven does win the duel, largely because of improved armour and damage output, assuming equal pilot skill here.

[Commander Kobold]

why put an XL in the commando it doesn't need it.

Gaan Cathal, on 18 March 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Er, no? Commando has to aim 1/4 of his armament, the Raven has to aim 3/5 of his. Ergo Raven requires more skill, since everything else between the two is equal (speed, JJ, etc).

The Raven does win the duel, largely because of improved armour and damage output, assuming equal pilot skill here.

both are relying on their streaks for dmg so neither require any skill.

[dario03]

Raven.

I've been in this match up a fair amount of times while in a 3L and at the start of a match where both mechs were fresh. The commando has never even come close. Now when splash damage gets fixed that might even it out a bit since they say the commando is hit hardest but I'm thinking the Raven will still win (assuming ~equal skill).

[Gaan Cathal]

Omni 13, on 18 March 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

both are relying on their streaks for dmg so neither require any skill.

If the Raven pilot isn't using his lasers, he's a moron.

Meanwhile On Namek, on 18 March 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

You know Havok for someone who is such a expert on light battlemechs, I couldn't help but remember that all 3 times you faced me 1 on 1 against my Commando 1B in your spider and your Raven, that the only reason you didn't die is because when things quickly turned bad for you against me, you ran with your tail between your legs and you had two of your goon buddies jump in and save you and you then gang attacked my Commando 3 on 1. All 3 times it happened, and all 3 times it was the same two mechwarriors. You are a coward and a troll Havok, I have faced you in 7 different matches and had you on my team in one match and never once have I seen you take down a enemy mech in single one on one combat, that is how pathetic of a joke you are as a mech pilot.

Er? Havok can be a bit of a troll sometimes and I don't necessarily agree with his 'everything is fine, move along' sentiments (although he is right that the arbitrary 3L hate is way out of proportion with it's affect on the game). But seriously...

"You're a bad light mech pilot because every time I've seen you ingame you've done exactly what a light pilot should do."? Followed up with "I'm much better than you, because I fell for it repeatedly."

What are you smoking? Really? Also, paragraphs.

[Kaldor]

Asmosis, on 13 March 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

when max speeds are equal, the heavier mech has a better chance of winning. Doesnt matter what the chassis involved are.

And here is the proper answer. When you have all mechs in the weight class all going the same speed there is no advantage. In all reality the Spider and Commando should be faster to give them an equalizer against the Ravens and Jenners. Top speed on the Commando and Spider needs to be around 165, and even that is not a huge edge. They also need to have a greater turn rate and possibly more torso twist range. Then they might be closer to equals.

The other side of the coin is always ECM. The light with ECM and SSRMs will beat the light without it most of the time. 2 ECM/SSRM lights, tonnage would be a good indicator of who will win.

I do not own a 3L, I flat out refuse. I do pilot a Trollmando though. Id say Im 50/50 against a 3L. If I get the jump and can get a couple volleys off before they know Im there, I will win without a doubt. Even up, its rough, depending on if they get lucky on my paper armor. I am also fairly good at getting in behind them and staying there, which if that is the case, I will win everytime. I also tend to chain fire my missiles as they seem to more reliably hit the torsos when i have time, otherwise is lock, dump and run.

[Commander Kobold]

well I wouldn't put an XL in the commando it's fragile as it is, and the raven has the advantage of wonky hitboxes.