57 replies to this topic

[Natasha Kerensky]

hashinshin, on 13 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

If you didn't want people to boat LRMs you shouldn't have added so many LRM boating mechanics.

You use artemis which uses tonnage to make LRMs stronger, so if you just added tonnage making them stronger... why not use more? You use TAG which uses tonnage to make LRMS stronger... If I have all this LRM ammo, why not find a way to shoot it faster?

or as I like to call it

If you try to balance an FPS off a 30 year old tabletop that really didn't care about balance you're going to have a bad time. (Especially when that 30 year old tabletop based what little balance it had primarily off of a point system you're ignoring.)

At some point it's just common sense. If you added a module that for 2 tons increased all laser damage by 20% why WOULDN'T you expect laser boats to become a thing?

Who doesn't want people to boat LRMs? Who's you? Certainly not PGI, they never said that they don't want people to boat anything. Certain mechs are missile boats and were designed that way. Live with it.

[Fut]

Zakie Chan, on 13 March 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

I dont want Lrms to be useless, I understand their role and purpose. However with 40 lrms doing 72 dmg and artemis tightening the cone to land relatively all in one spot sure makes 80 lrms on the enemy team outrageous.

You know, a simple torso twist on the 'Mech getting pelted by LRMs is enough to spread the damage out over multiple areas, right?
Besides, it's been said numerous times on here, 80 Missiles is a massive amount of ordnance. It's almost 0.5 Tonnes of missiles waiting to explode on impact - why should anybody feel like they should be able to eat that and continue on their way unharmed?
When you think about it, one should expect a decent amount of damage to arise from 0.5 tonnes of non-exploding missiles hitting a target at 100m/s...

AC, on 13 March 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

I just dislike how LRM's are the easy button. This is only because of the indirect fire mode they have combined with the free C3 network for everyone. If LRM's were LOS only, but were made even more effective when doing so, they would be a challengin and effective weapon.

Not really sure where to start with this one. Having LRMs as LOS only weapons really defeats the purpose of the weapon system, and reduces the game to more of a standard FPS, which doesn't really make sense.

As for the line I bolded/underlined in your quote...LRMs aren't powerful at all when fired in-directly - UNLESS you have a teammate providing you with a TAG Bonus, in which case it's taking two 'Mechs to deal the slightly concentrated damaged of the LRMs.

Basically I'm trying to say that LRMs are fairly well tuned at the moment.

[Paula Fry]

fc04.devianta...xinping2016.gif

NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF

Edited by Paula Fry, 13 March 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Natasha Kerensky]

hashinshin, on 13 March 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

that's not even true... why lie?

ERPPCs and Gauss Rifles do have longer range than LRMs in MWO.


ERPPCs max range = 1620m
Gauss Rifle max range = 1980m
LRMs max range = 1000M

[Havoc One]

I have an atlas I run with 3 lrm15s+art, a trebuchet with 2 lrm15s+art and a stalker with 4 lrm15s+art. I love where lrms are from my point of view but sometimes they are literally so powerful that I feel guilty. A medium or light thats stopped will be instant killed regardless of angle or armor side with a single missile launch and my DDC can kill most mechs before they realize hes there. Sometimes I will direct hit lights while they run and take them from 100% armor to dead in a single lrm45 volley.

I do feel like a large part of why LRMs are great is impatience on the part of the other team. I can often sit on a ridge in front of a field, intentionally get someone to notice me then as he runs accross the field/lake/valley to brawl I just light him up with a few hundred missiles. LRMs are largely about placement, both when using and hiding from them. If I get light rushed though I get wrecked every time and ac20 mediums are my bane in most cases. Hardpoints are always the limiting factor when dealing with LRM Boats though and other people need to recognize that to run a big boat with lots of ammo you will most likely also need a tag meaning you are using all of your missile slots plus one of your energy ones just for a weapon system that can not fire at anything within 180 metres.

In terms of competitiveness most boats can be easily found and killed in seconds by a well armed ECM (Cicadas and Ravens especially) mech so I dont know what the complaining is about. The only mech that I feel godlike in is my ECM Atlass DDC with 2 LL and LRM45+Art, the combination of ECM and instant kills on stationary mechs is just a little bit too much.

[XIRUSPHERE]

I run a 60 pack of ALRM with TAG, BAP, and advanced target decay. If I do not have LOS I am wasting my missiles, even if I manage to get a stable lock as long as someone is in even half cover they negate almost my entire barrage. If I am sitting anywhere over 500 meters chances are my missiles will never hit you. The only time I can do devastating attacks is when I have LOS + tag as even Artemis on it's own will not pack the missiles tight enough for devastating effect.

That being said, if a missile boat is closing on you and working the front lines as I tend to do it can easily be countered. If a light or a medium manages to flank around me and attack me 90% of the time i'm out of the match as from that point i'm almost defenseless save a couple lasers. If you make a dead charge at me and I have LOS and can put a tag on you well you just cashed a check for destruction. I have 2 volleyed full health Atlai bearing down on me from 350 meters that decided they didn't need cover. I have 1 shot pop tarts that got a little too brave when I was only 300-400 meters away, I have 1 shot lights that decide to run around in LOS but only if I could maintain a TAG.

LRM boats are only powerful when you make mistakes or don't give them a hard time. If you throw yourself at one that knows what he is doing chances are it's going to hurt. If you hate LRM the next time you see a boat give it the same priority you give a splatcat and talk to your team about how you are going to deal with it. If you don't exchange information i'm going to do what I can to get LOS and make the steel rain come.

[Bully_Hayes]

As an occasional LRM user I can say there are some things that bring a smile to my face.

1. How much ECM the opposition has....the less the better.
2. How many light ECM equiped mechs the opposition has in relation to Atlas DDC's,The more the better !! Why you ask ? because there off hunting with the latest greatest stealth technology and have no time to counter my teams ECM not to mention my tag equipped team mates are free to do there job. Result : your teams heavy's and mediums are the equivalent of the dollar menu at Mc Donalds.
3. Rambo !! yup Rambo comfortable with the knowledge that his ubber BF3 and COD skills will keep him safe is wandering around in the open ignoring cover......Favorite snack food of LRM boaters....Do have to wounder how many of the afore mentioned Rambo's are currently taking part in this discussion.

With the question of LRM's comes a bucket load of variables that the complaining types don't want to mention.As an LRM boater sometimes you get the bear and other times the bear gets you.....A lot of opinions and out rite guessing with little or no fact to back the argument.

[Zakie Chan]

Fut, on 13 March 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

You know, a simple torso twist on the 'Mech getting pelted by LRMs is enough to spread the damage out over multiple areas, right?
Besides, it's been said numerous times on here, 80 Missiles is a massive amount of ordnance. It's almost 0.5 Tonnes of missiles waiting to explode on impact - why should anybody feel like they should be able to eat that and continue on their way unharmed?
When you think about it, one should expect a decent amount of damage to arise from 0.5 tonnes of non-exploding missiles hitting a target at 100m/s...

In the second half of my post I stated that I am not trying to reduce their damage, simply where that damage is placed.

I am well aware of the values and effects of torso twisting, my problem lies with how tightly Artemis lrms come in.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 March 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

1.5 Million C-bills makes a laser boat more viable. On TT 2-3 at most 4 LRM were needed to make a Mech fearsome. Double armor, and generous HPs makes the MMO almost balanced with TT.

I dunno man. Boating was such a bad idea in TT if you were playing Mechwarrior or something where the pilot had value (like you were doing a campaign and experience to improve gunnery/piloting or the like). The only time boating works is when feast/famine is a viable tactical approach and makes me a bit twitchy I admit. Boating LRMs or SRMs or PPCs works in MWO because it doesn't matter if you die all the time or you can easily find yourself screwed by the situation because losing doesn't mean much of anything. If it did then you'd be more concerned with 'what's going to keep you alive and winning' than 'what's going to maximize my XP/cbill gain per match on average'.

LRM/ECM generally makes or breaks a game. If both teams have boats and only one team has ECM... well, that'll do it. TAG helps but only a bit. With the rise of LRM boats especially in pugs it's even worse because there's decent random odds that 1/3rd of your team will be effectively worthless on any given drop.

As to TT/MWO balance... I hate to say it but I'd have been happier with a small cone of fire for direct fire weapons and stricter tabletop balancing but without so many hardpoint limitations. Also ECM/LRMs on TT stats. Not that I don't get how to deal with artillery style LRMs but it just skews the rest of the game balance.

[Surtr]

They just need to roll back LRM range to that of TT, 660 or so. They did it in CB and it really made you think hard about getting inside sprinting distance of the enemy to lay down a lot of missiles.

[agenttbc]

No-one has mentioned the thing that first made LRM boating viable. Removal of repair/rearm!

Think about it. Do you have any idea how expensive it would be to re-arm a mech firing 1200 Artemis LRMs per battle? You would make nothing. If you didn't lose money.

Put back ammo costs and this won't be a problem most of the time.

[Baltasar]

agenttbc, on 13 March 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

No-one has mentioned the thing that first made LRM boating viable. Removal of repair/rearm!

Think about it. Do you have any idea how expensive it would be to re-arm a mech firing 1200 Artemis LRMs per battle? You would make nothing. If you didn't lose money.

Put back ammo costs and this won't be a problem most of the time.

Repair and rearm caused a lot of other problems though.

[Kdogg788]

If LRMs were nerfed the game would be even more brawl heavy than it is now and players would never fear walking about in the open. LRMs are fine as is compared with all the other weapons. Being targeted by them is in many cases avoidable. While I take some LRM hits, I am almost never really decimated by them. The other team needs multiple heavy LRM throwers slinging from multiple angles.

-k

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Everytime I see people complaining about LRM boating:

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 13 March 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Baltasar]

Kdogg788, on 13 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

If LRMs were nerfed the game would be even more brawl heavy than it is now and players would never fear walking about in the open. LRMs are fine as is compared with all the other weapons. Being targeted by them is in many cases avoidable. While I take some LRM hits, I am almost never really decimated by them. The other team needs multiple heavy LRM throwers slinging from multiple angles.

-k

Yep, we had this when damage was reduced to 1.7 and when ECM was first implemented.

[Red3]

To me, its not that i have a problem with a boats, I have a problem with the attitude of the Boater.

I am not your spotter. Dont blame me for not holding a lock for 9 seconds so your lrms can travel 900+ meters. Alot can happen in 9 seconds.

its not my fault that some ECM light ran up to my target and caused me to lose the target info.

its not my fault my target found cover and broke my LOS.

its not my fault that an ECM light ran within range of me and caused me to stop sharing targeting info.

its not my fault that I had to run away from the 3 other mechs that are bearing down on me.

its not my fault I had to find cover to avoid the LRMs that are targeting me.

its not my fault that my target overheated,shut down, and broke lock.

Stop blaming other people because you choose to play a support mech that needs to be supported.If you stayed 3-400m behind the front lines instead of 900+ you'll find that your far more effective, and can actually tell whether or not you SHOULD fire, and not waste ammo.

If you want a dedicated spotter, find one and drop with them. Don't expect a dedicated spotter in a PUG.

Edited by Red3, 13 March 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[topgun505]

Plus the fact that they took away rearm costs so now it doesn't cost diddly to replace literally 10 tons worth of missiles whereas before it would have sucked away all your winnings even if you won the game. So there is no incentive NOT to.

hashinshin, on 13 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

If you didn't want people to boat LRMs you shouldn't have added so many LRM boating mechanics.

You use artemis which uses tonnage to make LRMs stronger, so if you just added tonnage making them stronger... why not use more? You use TAG which uses tonnage to make LRMS stronger... If I have all this LRM ammo, why not find a way to shoot it faster?

or as I like to call it

If you try to balance an FPS off a 30 year old tabletop that really didn't care about balance you're going to have a bad time. (Especially when that 30 year old tabletop based what little balance it had primarily off of a point system you're ignoring.)

At some point it's just common sense. If you added a module that for 2 tons increased all laser damage by 20% why WOULDN'T you expect laser boats to become a thing?

Edited by topgun505, 13 March 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Baltasar]

Red3, on 13 March 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

To me, its not that i have a problem with a boats, I have a problem with the attitude of the Boater.

I am not your spotter. Dont blame me for not holding a lock for 9 seconds so your lrms can travel 900+ meters. Alot can happen in 9 seconds.

its not my fault that some ECM light ran up to my target and caused me to lose the target info.

its not my fault my target found cover and broke my LOS.

its not my fault that an ECM light ran within range of me and caused me to stop sharing targeting info.

its not my fault that I had to run away from the 3 other mechs that are bearing down on me.

its not my fault I had to find cover to avoid the LRMs that are targeting me.

its not my fault that my target overheated,shut down, and broke lock.

Stop blaming other people because you choose to play a support mech that needs to be supported.If you stayed 3-400m behind the front lines instead of 900+ you'll find that your far more effective, and can actually tell whether or not you SHOULD fire, and not waste ammo.

If you want a dedicated spotter, find one and drop with them. Don't expect a dedicated spotter in a PUG.

Agreed, That is why I like playing a more mobile LRM support...that way I can tag my own targets. Nothing annoys me more than LRM boats that don't push with the group. At least stay within 600 meters of your main force. Its the ones that stay at max range then complain at being ganked.