52 replies to this topic

[SC1P1O]

I also should put the disclaimer that this tends to frustrate me more in pug drops, where i'm one of the few guys left and i have to deal with 1 to 2 of these builds. I just think boating really is detrimental to pug drops more so than organized 4 man drops.

I also think if your going to boat there should be some incremental penalty

i mean what soldier brings 4 sniper rifles to urban warfare?

[Chavette]

We've been poppin from the bottom now we here, poppin from the bottom now my whole team poppin here

[SC1P1O]

I just feel the game should encourage having flexible builds like my atlas K
I have 2 ams to help my team
1 lrm 20 artemis
2ll
and 1 ac20

This allows me to be effective at all ranges.

[Taemien]

SC1P1O, on 13 March 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Then if its so many drawbacks, why do you see so many of the boats, Its like the A1 people liked it cuz you could boat srm6 now its the ppc craze, and turning into lrm craze again. This boating is frustrating because thiers no drawbacks to it. I would like to see builds that are jack of all trades, i feel boating something should not equal amazing mech.

There is drawbacks. The common Drawback to the PPC Boats, A1 Splatcats, and Medium Laser Hunchbacks are all the same: A Skilled Veteran.

At least thats the short answer. Those boats are all one trick ponies. When you identify one, you immediately know how to counter it. With Splatcats you stay away and shoot the ears off. For the PPC boats you get close.

What do you do for something mounting LRMs and Medium Lasers? Its going to hurt you reliably at both long and short range. Mixed loadouts in skilled hands will always beat the boats simply because they bring an element of the unknown to the battle. Yeah you might know how to deal with LRMs, or Medium Lasers but you may not know what that pilot is capable of doing with both. You might get lucky, you might not.

[silentD11]

Culler, on 13 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

If you can't cross 200m in 9 seconds, your mech is too slow. If you can't cross 400m in 9 seconds, your mech is too slow. Granted, no one wants to take 80 damage on the way in. If you can't reach a PPC mech in 5 seconds, you're either too slow or engaging in a bad place. Make them come to you, because there are no objectives in the middle of nowhere where they could get a field of fire like that.

Personally I think the boomcat is way more dangerous than 4x PPCs because it can keep firing and has no minimum range.

The Boomcat is not. It's way too much of a specialist. The amount of slots the AC20 takes up, it's tonnage, + tonnage of ammo are all disadvantages vs PPCs. The AC20 also generates a ton of heat, though it's less noticeable since the reload time is vastly longer than the PPCs. And let's be honest "make them come to you" doesn't work on people who are awake and know that they have the range on you.

Quote

Missing means you lose like 4 seconds of damage for nothing

Most PPC boaters are fairly good shots. Most of the shots good PPC players miss is just "throwing **** out there to keep people on defense" they aren't trying to hit really, and they aren't blowing the full alpha. You can keep your heat down in the pressure game enough that it's not an issue. Then move to the alpha when a shot is certain.

[SC1P1O]

I agree, i think after more analysis of this fustration, it is more a problem in pugging If your not with your group its frustrating running against boats, i feel to improve the pug experience nerfing boating would be helpful.

[Jacmac]

SC1P1O, on 13 March 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

The only thing i can think of to counter is LRMS but in order to use them effectively you will need a light, and i find its very easy to kill lights in a ppc boat.

If that were true, everyone would be running 6 PPC Stalkers to get rid of the lights on the battlefield. It might be easy to kill bad light pilots with a PPC boat, but any light pilot with decent experience won't have much trouble killing off a PPC boat solo.

[Satan n stuff]

Taemien, on 13 March 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

There is drawbacks. The common Drawback to the PPC Boats, A1 Splatcats, and Medium Laser Hunchbacks are all the same: A Skilled Veteran.

At least thats the short answer. Those boats are all one trick ponies. When you identify one, you immediately know how to counter it. With Splatcats you stay away and shoot the ears off. For the PPC boats you get close.

What do you do for something mounting LRMs and Medium Lasers? Its going to hurt you reliably at both long and short range. Mixed loadouts in skilled hands will always beat the boats simply because they bring an element of the unknown to the battle. Yeah you might know how to deal with LRMs, or Medium Lasers but you may not know what that pilot is capable of doing with both. You might get lucky, you might not.

Which is precisely why the Catapult C1 is one of the deadliest mechs in it's stock config.

As someone who has used PPCs and ER PPCs extensively I can say that in any engagement that lasts more than 10 or so seconds you're going to be at a massive disadvantage with either kind of PPC, especially on caustic. The best way to use them is to stick to cover and fire a couple of shots before hiding to cool down, repeating until the target is dead, and while your heat is low taking the occasional potshot when the enemy hasn't fully committed yet because once the real fighting starts everyone will be dealing much more damage than you and you don't have to worry about wasting ammo early on.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 13 March 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SC1P1O, on 13 March 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Is anyone annoyed by people boating 4 ppcs without struggling with heat much?

have you ever actually run one? heat is a very real issue. They pretty much consistently run on the ragged edge of overheat, and if pulled into a snafu, are always shutting down. (and if using standard PPCs, probably panicking at all the face hugging)

I prefer more balanced builds, hence my 2 ER PPC Cat, or 3 PPC Awesomes, but I hardly find the 4 PPC mechs to be some king of magic mech. You have serious tradeoffs.

[Chavette]

SC1P1O, on 13 March 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Is anyone annoyed by people boating 4 ppcs without struggling with heat much?

The magic 4th ppc is the fine line when the grunts say its bad, overheats, useless... and the pros just smile and make it work anyway.

Its your time to figure out what you are.

[SC1P1O]

I have i chain fire once they close, the heat is manageable. Not saying its a god mech, but i do think its a little powerful to boat 4 ppcs without really worrying about heat unless your on caustic but even then its a good mech to have on that map.

[SC1P1O]

Im coming from a point of view that boating other builds has more limitations. The A1 is very squishy and has to be at 200m to be effective. the AC20 cat is similar to the A1 in range but also much slower. Where as a PPC stalker can be very effective at any range, especially at long range where overheating does not effect you much.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lol.

Comparing a mech's arsenal to a sniper. Totally unrelated. Closer would be why do battleships have multiple cannons per turret? A human sniper is about a single precision shot. Mechs are about continuously delivering payload until the armor is breached. Being able to breach that armor in a single volley, rather than trying to land 4 sequential shots to the exact location, over a 12 second span can be the difference between success or failure.

In reality, boated weapons would be MORE effective, as dropping let's say, 120 kilojoules in one spot at one time actually causes more impact damage than 30 hitting the same spot 4 times over 12 seconds. (like hitting a 1/4 inch steel plate with a 44 mag. It won't penetrate, but a round delivering 4 times the damage will.)

[Zeh]

LordBraxton, on 13 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

err I Like large lasers a lot but being forced to stare at the enemy while firing them is a liability, I can snap fire a PPC and look away or get behind cover.

Really these weapons are too different to compare

Yea I kinda lolled at that.

[Malsumis]

That's why my PPC build has 2xPPC and 2xERPPC. Effective at ALL ranges :-)

Do I overheat in my 3D? Yes I do, but I'm usually firing off an alpha that ends with me overheating and my target dead so it's a fair trade off.

I must admit though my favorite PPC build is my C1. Good speed, armor, and very effective at all ranges. I was not a fan of my C1 for a while until ERPPC's got some love from the devs.

[MustrumRidcully]

I suppose PPCs (inluding ER PPCs) and LRMs share one issue - if you get to close to them, they are in real trouble. The reasons aren't exactly the same, however:
- LRMs have a minimum range, and once you are inside theirs, they will not have an easy time getting out. They probably won't be as fast backwards as you will go forwards.
- PPCs also have a minimum range, but the bigger issue with them and the ER PPCs is that they are so hot - they can only really utilize their potential if they get to play sniper and take their time to both aim and to cool off, while the enemy is busy just moving around. If you#re in their face, you deliver constant damage and they cannot keep up because they get too hot.

I am not convinced the drawbacks all cancel out the advantages, but they must be considered.

I think compared to the LRMs and PPC users, Boomcats and Splatapults have the big advantage that they still allow you to go on the offensive, even if you need to first find a way to cover. But the Splatapult doesn't announce itself at range, it announces it only when you're in its optimum range, and you either can deal with its damage output and counter it with your own (which is hard, because 90 damage alpha!) or can get away (which is unlikely for the same reasons that it's difficult for the LRM boat to get away).

If I had to bet on a 6 LRM20 boat Assault Mech and a 6 SRM6 Splatapult, I'd bet on the latter.

[Tickdoff Tank]

SC1P1O, on 13 March 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I just feel the game should encourage having flexible builds like my atlas K
I have 2 ams to help my team
1 lrm 20 artemis
2ll
and 1 ac20

This allows me to be effective at all ranges.

And it also makes you weaker at any specific range when compared to a mech built to excel at a particular range, like a splat cat.

I also prefer to run a mech that is effective at all ranges, but you must acknowledge your own limitations.

[silentD11]

MustrumRidcully, on 13 March 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

If I had to bet on a 6 LRM20 boat Assault Mech and a 6 SRM6 Splatapult, I'd bet on the latter.

Depends entirely on the map and the starting positions. I personally feel that greater map variety will encourage more balanced builds. We don't have much (and the slight variants do not a new map make) so mechs are tweaked for those maps. More map variety might even help balance the weapons.

Though I do hope for some sort of "dome of doom" TDM type mode down the road.

[Taemien]

***** n stuff, on 13 March 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Which is precisely why the Catapult C1 is one of the deadliest mechs in it's stock config.

As someone who has used PPCs and ER PPCs extensively I can say that in any engagement that lasts more than 10 or so seconds you're going to be at a massive disadvantage with either kind of PPC, especially on caustic. The best way to use them is to stick to cover and fire a couple of shots before hiding to cool down, repeating until the target is dead, and while your heat is low taking the occasional potshot when the enemy hasn't fully committed yet because once the real fighting starts everyone will be dealing much more damage than you and you don't have to worry about wasting ammo early on.

I do love my C1.

And you're right about PPCs. I typically will use a PPC in conjunction with another weapon system. Giving me that one-two punch that shreds people overtime and I can get multiple kills. Boats get kills through finishing blows, not really though outright damage.

There is a quote that says, "Burst is King"

It is, but you have to be smart about it. Having all burst makes you vulnerable. Too little is also not good.

We also have to think about the new map, its probably going to be a hot one. Long Range requirement plus hot will stress many mechs. I think we'll see a resurgence of Gauss Rifles and UACs.

I can hear the complaints already. "Now I have to keep long range, short range, and heat efficient weapons on my builds." Yep.. you do, welcome to MechWarrior.

[Vapor Trail]

Culler, on 13 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

If you can't cross 200m in 9 seconds, your mech is too slow. If you can't cross 400m in 9 seconds, your mech is too slow.

Just so you're aware, this translates to TT movement points of 7.33 and 14.66...

So anything that doesn't move 80 to 160 kph is too slow.