205 replies to this topic

[John MatriX82]

Kell Draygo, on 14 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

You seem to not understand what we are saying. We said that you get a separate ELO Rating for each weight class. We did not say that the ELO system includes tonnage into its matchmaking process.

Then it should take it into account. Or employ some sort of battlevalue of your mech and your ELO, therefore a highly upgraded medium (let's say XL+ENDO+DHS) it's fair if it's going to be paired up with a similarly ELO skilled player using a heavy (STD+ENDO+DHS). Or you can see for yourself from that screenshot what happens..

[Kell Draygo]

I have a feeling the Devs did not include weight into its matchmaking process because there are not enough players to do so. There are already times when there are not enough players to have a tighter ELO grouping.

[John MatriX82]

Kell Draygo, on 14 March 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

I have a feeling the Devs did not include weight into its matchmaking process because there are not enough players to do so. There are already times when there are not enough players to have a tighter ELO grouping.

I have the same feeling, but since ELO introduction I feel forced to employ cheesy builds or go heavy/assault to have a major impact in the matches I do.. therefore nearly the 75% of the mechs I own are taking rust on them, or I'm having an hard time to exp anything new, since the MM doesn't account me differently when I am in a not even basic cent or when I'm into my uberly mastered Atlas.

By this I want to say that I like when matches are close, I also enjoy when I lose by long and furious battles, those when you feel yourself strained to just survive.. but later on I get tired to do wonders only to get leveled to the ground and see that no matter how good I could do, the difference is so nigh in the other team.. you lose the "enjoying factor" in playing this way.

Later on, 8 man games (i mean 8 man premades) have become much more "relaxing" than pugging or do some group play to have some fun expermenting other builds or mechs.

Edited by John MatriX82, 14 March 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Zeh]

I'm skeptical. Mostly when I see this complaint it's not from someone claiming to be at the top of ELO. Generally, from reading previous similar posts, the people with really high ELO are getting really good teammates. I've won about 80 of 114 games or so since mech stats went out (70ish%), maintained a 75%+ winrate during ELO seeding, and I haven't seen anything like this. Are these people with 80%+ post-ELO win-rates? I'm curious, because as I said, this generally has been seen as a complaint of those with less-than-the-highest ELO.

Edited by Zeh, 14 March 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Noobzorz]

They should just split pugs and lances into different queues.

[Sprouticus]

I would like to give the OP a +1. Last night was the first night in a few weeks where I was able to drop for several hours with my unit (real life has kept me mainly playing a few matches here or there, mostly solo).

Some of the guys I dropped with are VERY good. And it seemed like about 50% of the time we were getting 4 less than skilled players as our teammates.


There are tactical things you can do to make up for that, but I would much rather the Elo system put in 16 good players than 4 very good + 4 bad vs 8 good.

Noobzorz, on 14 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

They should just split pugs and lances into different queues.

I used to be against this, but Im starting to wonder. Maybe have solo and 2 player groups in 1 queue and 3-8 in another?

[LoganMkv]

SgtKinCaiD, on 14 March 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

LOL, because playing in a four man group is cheating perhaps ???

Before ELO, I lost and won matches but at least my participation in the match was significant in the result of the match. Now even if i try my best, what can i expect to do when half of my team are new players ???

New players should not be used to compensante high ELO players, they should have their own low-ELO matchs like a normal balancing system should work !!!

Most pugs you've stomped before might had up to 7 new players with them.

If you think you're good, go play 8v8 or pug like a man.

[ciller]

Noobzorz, on 14 March 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

They should just split pugs and lances into different queues.

This makes match making difficult, due to 2, 3 and 4 man sized groups and the inability to fill in spots when possible. You will end up with longer match searches and many more failures as well. Splitting the queues just wont work well.

Most matches end in a "stomp" when in fact the game was quite even. Once one team starts to get an advantage, that advantage snowballs into a landslide victory, even against fairly even teams. It is just the nature of how games play out and may not be a good indicator if ELO is working well or not.

Edited by ciller, 14 March 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Communicate with your pugs and you'll do better.

When I pug I am starting to find I do better if I drop with all pugs than with a premade. That bugs me, I used to like playing with premades. Now they will just camp at the base until everyone else goes out, then just try to shoot whoever is most damaged and steal a few kills before they die. I'd rather have rambo pugs at this point than some of the premades I pugged with the other day.

Admittedly I may be wrong. The statistically probability of 2-4 players with comparable paint jobs all doing the same thing though....

Communicate. Be a team. Teamspeak or otherwise. You'll do better. Everyone will have more fun. Follow the plan even if you don't agree - sometimes you win anyway.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I have often attributed my loss ratios to the players I'm (pretty much) forced to play with... it's no wonder you see skilled players run and hide when they're the last man standing they look around like okay my team did x y 'n z wrong but if I bother telling them they'll just call me a coward and have probably already reported my position.

You know what I do when I'm mad at my team? I commit Bondsref, especially if the enemy does not deserve the kill.

And I tend to not say a word to anyone about it and ignore all. It's just business, that's all. If you roll w/ me, there's no need to tell me what to do, who to shoot or where to be... I may not be able to do all those things at any given moment or could just flat be in the wrong place at the wrong time [or make silly choices] but still when you get pilots who know the map, the 'mech and the configuration words are not really needed, they just know.

Part of the problem is that if you're fairly certain you're that high on the ELO ranking then there's not much at your level or above you to group with... and I highly doubt a single one of ya are in the top 5%... but what do I know, it could just be that there are only 50%ers online at the time so those are the people you're grouped with.

In a couple months here what with the release of 12v12 'n all the juicy other components like integrated 'n easy to use VOIP, grouping options and factions... Who knows how it will all play out I suppose it could turn out to be a bad thing for many of the not so good pilots, but yeah, for those who have some rank behind them it could be a very good thing.

Edited by M4NTiC0R3X, 14 March 2013 - 08:57 AM.

[Adrian Steel]

I don't think the OP started this thread because he's necessarily a low-skill 4-man pugstomper. I'm pretty sure those guys got whacked down by Elo some time ago.

From another thread on the same topic:

Adrian Steel, on 13 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

I can corroborate what the OP is saying.

I often run a 2 man pre-made with my brother, Ryan Steel. We're of comparable skill. We coordinate on comms. We can be matched with bads on our team that do everything wrong, while the other team appears to be chock full of decent players.

When we each solo pug, there never seems to be the same disparity. Every bad on our team correlates to a bad on the other team.

We have a sneaking suspicion that the match making code is different for pre-mades than solo pugs, and that this is most noticeable in non-primetime hours where the population at the extreme ends of the Elo bell curve will be minimal. It's very possible that pre-mades are assumed to have a communication advantage in the match making code, and are purposefully matched with team-mates of a lower Elo in order to compensate.

If you're incredulous at this claim, ask yourself how many modifications to the game haven't been in the patch notes... There are entire threads devoted to discussing these easter eggs.

Targetloc replies:

Targetloc, on 13 March 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

I don't think it's a secret conspiracy against groups.


Let's assume you and your brother are both in the 1800's. If it's in the off-peak hours, the game searches and searches for 2 other 1800 players who launched within the last few seconds, but can't find any. So it widens the search bracket to look in the 1700's and 1900's. Then the 1600's and the 2000's.
Now, you are extremely unlikely to find anyone the higher you go. But the lower you go, there's also more people playing. So even though there might be some people queuing up in the 1600's, the game sees 2 or 3 people in the 1600's launched around the same time, and they're a much closer match, so they get paired with each other instead of you.

Now it's getting close to the 2 minute limit so the MM goes into panic mode and slaps you two in against two guys in the 1400's.

So now the MM needs to fill in the rest of the players. And it needs to keep the average elo the same. You and your brother add to 3600. Your opponents add to 2400.

Oh look, there's 2 guys in the 1100's that have been waiting 2 minutes for a game too because there's no one else down in the underhive to match them with. You get those guys.

Now your total is 5800. The other guys get 2 dudes in the 1300's. Now they're at 5400.

Some dude in the 900's accidentally launched while chewing on his Logitech G27. He's on your team.

The average joes pick up another 1400 player.

Now this game is already in the 'taking too long, no time for brackets' mode so the rest of both teams is filled with 1300 peoples who are pretty much unranked and random (with a huge population skew towards new players). GLHF.


Oh, and remember it works in the other direction too. If some dude in the 900's has been waiting 2 minutes for it to pair him up with someone, the game will pull you down to help average his score against the 1300's it needs to pair him with.

TL;DR:

If you are indeed in a high Elo bracket (not saying I am - don't actually know), then you will likely get stuffed with bads at the lowest 25% of the bell curve during non-primetime hours to compensate. I guess we could call that Elo hell.

Edited by Adrian Steel, 14 March 2013 - 08:49 AM.

[Vividos]

RiceyFighter, on 13 March 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I been noticing in 4 man drops, if two or three of your 4 man team have super high ELO score (top 5% of MWO player), You will be dropped with 4 pug players that can't even turn and shoot straight.

Making it even worse the enemy team will have a balanced ELO team where all team members are average to above average.

So in the end, my entire day with my 4 man team was basically using PUB members as cannon fodder while we try to hold our own. The enemy team would be a balanced Average to Above Average members and will literally rip apart our pug members within the first 5 minutes of the match and we are always the last 4 standing and doing the most damage. So it always ends up being 4 V 8 because our pugs can't keep it together. And that is why we loose 70% of the matches.

To make matters worse our novice Pub team doesn't use optimized builds and 50% of them will run trial and the other half will run terrible light and medium mech builds since they don't have enough C-Bills to buy proper mechs and loadouts.

On the other side, the enemy team probably run optimized builds and cheese builds, but those mechs make an average pilot extremely dangerious.

TL;DR:

So in the end my conclusion is: 3 Super High ELO players + 5 pugs vs 8 average ELO pug players; The 8 average ELO pugs will mostly win because by 5 minutes in it ends up being 4 V 8.

cbf to read the entire thread but in response to the OP:

good job describing almost every match i play.
and i only drop solo. never once grouped.
consistently i witness half my team carrying the other half.
i almost always finish in the top 1 or 2 position, win or lose.

welcome to high ELO.

[Zeh]

Vividos, on 14 March 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

cbf to read the entire thread but in response to the OP:

good job describing almost every match i play.
and i only drop solo. never once grouped.
consistently i witness half my team carrying the other half.
i almost always finish in the top 1 or 2 position, win or lose.

welcome to high ELO.

Can you share your win-rate post mech stats? I'm still dubious about the assertion that this is happening to high ELO.

[Metafox]

RiceyFighter, on 13 March 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I been noticing in 4 man drops, if two or three of your 4 man team have super high ELO score (top 5% of MWO player), You will be dropped with 4 pug players that can't even turn and shoot straight.

It's funny that you should mention this, because just last night a teammate was commenting how in a 4-man vs. a 4-man drop, the battle is decided by whichever side has the least useless pugs.

[Mister Blastman]

OP: I have noticed this a LOT lately. When I team up with certain clanmates who also have very high (theoretically) ELO scores, we almost always get saddled with horrid PUG players and certainly leads to unbalanced matches--especially considering the matchmaker doesn't match up tonnage anymore either.

[Zeh]

Hey. Can everyone who comments on this just include your win % post-mech-stats? So far nothing at all can be determined here, other than "some people feel some stuff".

Win rate is a direct determiner of ELO. You win, ELO goes up. You lose, ELO goes down. Yes that means it doesn't factor your skill, but your (And your teammates) ability to win. But it is what it is. And all these assertions with no data aren't very useful.

As I said above. 70% win-rate post-mech-stats, 75+% during seeding, and I don't see this effect at all. I know there's people out there who maintained 80%+ win-rates prior to ELO, so I know I'm not at the highest tier, but all this conjecture is annoying without any data to compare.

[Zeh]

BUMP. I'd like to at least get something useful out of the 3+ threads on this. I know several of you would love to bring up your high win%, so anyone want to respond? Please?

Just give your win rate, and whether or not you're seeing this problem of being matched up with severely underperforming players in what seems like an attempt to balance teams.

Edited by Zeh, 14 March 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[FerretGR]

RiceyFighter, on 13 March 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I been noticing in 4 man drops, if two or three of your 4 man team have super high ELO score (top 5% of MWO player), You will be dropped with 4 pug players that can't even turn and shoot straight.

Command Chair said:

How does the match maker compose a teams Elo rating, is it average rating or closest to a target?

It's closest to a target value, so the match maker starts trying to make a match for an Elo of say 1300 and will pull in players to those teams closest to those values; however, as mentioned earlier within growing thresholds and those curves will be tuned. Currently it may be a bit 'sloppy' about how it's filling those buckets but over time it will be tuned to be much more precise.

We need to do this carefully over time as generally the cost of precision is time to find a match we want to slowly find a very nice balance between time to find a match and the number of matches that are correctly composed.

What you're describing is not how the matchmaker works according to the Command Chair post on the subject. Given "sloppy" matchmaking, you might get paired with noobs occasionally at a high Elo rating, but the system isn't using an "average" so it's not sticking dummies on your team just to even out your "super-high Elo".

It's more likely that your Elo is either inflated well beyond what it should be based on your in-team PUG stomping success in the data-gathering phase, or that you're assuming that you're at a high Elo when you're actually not. Maybe the issue isn't with the PUGs at all.

Zeh, on 14 March 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Just give your win rate, and whether or not you're seeing this problem of being matched up with severely underperforming players in what seems like an attempt to balance teams.

I have a record of 1,084 / 798 (approx 58% win rate, maybe 30% of games played is PUGing), and 67 / 70 since stats have been tracked in the era of Elo (using the stats by mech as this reference, those stats were colelcted starting after Elo was implemented, just under 50%). I'm seeing lots of familiar names in-game, and the situation you're talking about (being matched with players who appear far below my Elo) never happens to me.

Edited by FerretGR, 14 March 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Zeh]

Ferret, you sound like you haven't been having this issue mentioned by the OP? Mind giving out your win-rate stats?

[BlueSanta]

I love how people just assume they are in the top 5% of ELO. What did you do, win one of the ****** tournaments? Be a part of a clan? Pilot a 3L?