29 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

I will only compare table top to mw4 and then to mwo.

LRM20 in TT did 20(maximum) damage.

MW4 LRM20 did 16 damage.

But here... an LRM 20 does a random amount depending on the targets hitboxes.... anywhere from 27 damage to 100 damage due to splash mechanics.


Both MW4 and MWO had increased armor values, yet the LRMs in MW4 were still very effective at less than the TT damage values.

In MWO if we used TT values the LRMs would seem like garbage. Why is that?

Because in both TT, and MW4, the LRMs did most of their damage to 1 hit location with only minor spillover to adjacent locations.

In MWO the missles are spread evenly all over. So in order for it to seem effective, it has to do tons of damage. With the current implementation, there is no pinpoint accuracy. You cant lock your missles on a certain hitbox and have most of the missles go there. If they did I could call this skill because then you would actually have to aim them to be effective. This is how it was in MW4.

In TT it was a roll of the dice with skill being factored in the ability to hit, but a random roll to where.

In short, MWO LRM system requires very little is any skill and does way more damage than it should just to give the appearance of being effective. This is a bad design....

Now factor in ECM as a counter for this bad design, and ECM takes *zero* skill, and now you have 2 features of the game that take no skill whatsoever and are dominating how the game is played.

My point is.... if this game is to be truly balanced in this regard, it needs to start with LRM's and how they function. LRMs need to be redesigned from the ground up to be based on skill, just like TT, and just like MW4. THEN redesign ECM also in line with TT and/or similar to MW4 versions of ECM, and you will have a much better game.

Edited by Teralitha, 15 March 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[von Pilsner]

Although Paul Inouye was referring to SRM & SSRM I imagine they will tweak LRMs as well...

Quote

We are looking at the tuning for these hit locations/splash damage and will update as soon as possible.

The OP he was referring to included:

Quote

LRM damage is also higher than would be expected. Firing an LRM 5 at an Atlas from about 200 m, I observe 3.1 damage/missile (not 1.8) as a typical value. Doing the same thing versus an Awesome at about 700 m, I observe about 5.8 damage/missile. I cannot be sure that all missiles hit, so the actual damage per missile may be even higher (although only the missiles that hit are important).

So hopefully the devs are aware of the Missile damage issues now...

[Teralitha]

von Pilsner, on 15 March 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

Although Paul Inouye was referring to SRM & SSRM I imagine they will tweak LRMs as well...



The OP he was referring to included:


So hopefully the devs are aware of the Missile damage issues now...

Yes but... suppose they remove the splash effect... what then? LRMS then will be utterly useless with how they are currently implemented. LRMs need to be totally redesigned with skill being the number 1 factor before any modifications such as artemis or TAG/NARC... or ECM/BAP

Edited by Teralitha, 15 March 2013 - 02:54 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

LRMs in TT did less than 1 damage per missile? That a Catalyst thing? Cause Id swear when I was playing they were 1 per missile

Teralitha, on 15 March 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

Yes but... suppose they remove the splash effect... what then? LRMS then will be utterly useless with how they are currently implemented. LRMs need to be totally redesigned with skill being the number 1 factor before any modifications such as artemis or TAG/NARC... or ECM/BAP

you wanna make them more useless than you think they will be with splash removed, try adding "skill" to them. What.... remove the lock? Yeah... firing a missile system with a minimum range at mechs that move as much as the ones do in this game.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

No splash.1 dmg per missile...and speed of PPC and here we go .NP for me...

[Teralitha]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 15 March 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

LRMs in TT did less than 1 damage per missile? That a Catalyst thing? Cause Id swear when I was playing they were 1 per missile



you wanna make them more useless than you think they will be with splash removed, try adding "skill" to them. What.... remove the lock? Yeah... firing a missile system with a minimum range at mechs that move as much as the ones do in this game.

LRM damage may be different depending on your GM, but in the books your basic LRM I believe were:

LRM20 = 16
LRM15 = 12
LRM10 = 8
LRM5 = 4

And yes to what you said about targeting moving mechs. But I woudnt keep the minimum range in that case. the system worked in MW4 just fine, and only very dedicated LRM pilots were deadly with LRMs, instead of just any nub...

Edited by Teralitha, 15 March 2013 - 03:07 AM.

[Tyler Durden]

Teralitha, on 15 March 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

LRM20 in TT did 16 damage.

Because in both TT, and MW4, the LRMs did most of their damage to 1 hit location with only minor spillover to adjacent locations.

In TT it was a roll of the dice with skill being factored in the ability to hit, but a random roll to where.

The LRM 20 does varying damage depending upon your roll on the Missile Hits Table. On a 2, the LRM 20 does 6pts, while on a 12, it does 20 pts. On average, you will do 12 points of damage, however. Not sure where you get 16 points. The missile does 1 point per missile, but the missile hit table determines how many missiles actually hit the target.

LRM missile damage in BattleTech is assigned in groups of 5 points, each group a random roll as to where it hits. I don't exactly call that damage to one hit location. Unless you meant to say MW4 does this, don't include BattleTech. You seem to be contradicting yourself in your statements.

Statistically, sure, you stand a better chance to hit the center torso with more of the point groups, but I find this is not usually the case.

[Teralitha]

Tyler Durden, on 15 March 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

The LRM 20 does varying damage depending upon your roll on the Missile Hits Table. On a 2, the LRM 20 does 6pts, while on a 12, it does 20 pts. On average, you will do 12 points of damage, however. Not sure where you get 16 points. The missile does 1 point per missile, but the missile hit table determines how many missiles actually hit the target.

LRM missile damage in BattleTech is assigned in groups of 5 points, each group a random roll as to where it hits. I don't exactly call that damage to one hit location. Unless you meant to say MW4 does this, don't include BattleTech. You seem to be contradicting yourself in your statements.

Statistically, sure, you stand a better chance to hit the center torso with more of the point groups, but I find this is not usually the case.

Like I said it depends on your GM, mine I guess didnt want to bother with so many dice rolls.

[Tyler Durden]

Teralitha, on 15 March 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

LRM damage may be different depending on your GM, but in the books your basic LRM I believe were:

LRM20 = 16
LRM15 = 12
LRM10 = 8
LRM5 = 4

Edit:

Yes, your GM was simplifying the LRM damage. I don't agree with it, but it that's why it's a house rule.

Sarna.net has a missile hit table for your reference: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Edited by Tyler Durden, 15 March 2013 - 03:19 AM.

[Teralitha]

Maybe those were just the MW4 numbers and TT was just 1 pt per missle... Its been so long I cant remember exactly now.... just disregard that part of the post.

[Tyler Durden]

Eh, no problem. I play the game pretty regularly and I just want people to understand how BattleTech actually works. I didn't mean to jump all over you.

I hope you at least had fun playing BattleTech!

[Karl Streiger]

In BattleForce or BattleSpace the missile damage as well as the Ultra Autocannon or LBX damage was made more simple.

You don't have to consider that out of a SRM 6 volley only 3 missiles hit and now you have to roll for the hit locations. Even armor was more simple.
LRM 20 do 1,6dmg...remove 2armor points from your drop ship....

[SgtMagor]

um, I think in mw4 there was no guarantee all missles would hit the target, since most mechs carried AMS, LAMS, add direction of travel, speed. you got a certain percentage. but the good thing about Lrms was you could target any part of the mech, and at close range you you dumb fire them like mrms, srms and and they will do damage like you had a target lock...

[Koshirou]

Tyler Durden, on 15 March 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

Edit:

Yes, your GM was simplifying the LRM damage. I don't agree with it, but it that's why it's a house rule.

Sarna.net has a missile hit table for your reference: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

By the way, average damage per launcher size, rounded to one decimal:
LRM 5: 3.2
LRM 10: 6.3
LRM 15: 9.5
LRM 20: 12.7

(Without Artemis/NARC etc.)

Edited by Koshirou, 15 March 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[Megurine Luka]

Teralitha, on 15 March 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

I will only compare table top to mw4 and then to mwo.

LRM20 in TT did 20(maximum) damage.

MW4 LRM20 did 16 damage.

But here... an LRM 20 does a random amount depending on the targets hitboxes.... anywhere from 27 damage to 100 damage due to splash mechanics.


Both MW4 and MWO had increased armor values, yet the LRMs in MW4 were still very effective at less than the TT damage values.

In MWO if we used TT values t
e LRMs would seem like garbage. Why is that?

Because in both TT, and MW4, the LRMs did most of their damage to 1 hit location with only minor spillover to adjacent locations.

Teralitha, on 15 March 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

LRM damage may be different depending on your GM, but in the books your basic LRM I believe were:

LRM20 = 16
LRM15 = 12
LRM10 = 8
LRM5 = 4

And yes to what you said about targeting moving mechs. But I woudnt keep the minimum range in that case. the system worked in MW4 just fine, and only very dedicated LRM pilots were deadly with LRMs, instead of just any nub...

Which game is he playing? 1 location hits? Fixed damage?

[Wargeisen]

Greetings,

as an old GM at BT/MW, playing by the rules (and having the rules book under my eyes ), the most usual roll for LRM, that is a 7 with two 6 dices, is 3 missiles hit by 5-launchers, as some put in. (so 6 for 10, 9 for 15 and 12 for 20).
Each missiles do 1 pt of dmg, located by 5 missiles clusters.

The number given by 4, 8, 12 and 16 is the norm for a launcher with Artemis or against a NARCed enemy unit.

In the campaign I run some years ago, I used rules from Solaris VII with the 3rd edition of MW (the rpg), when you rolled two 10 dices, and if you hit with more than 5, then you will have won a +1 on the missile table (or +1 on dmg for others weapons, as in the Solaris rules).

But there was never splashing damage.

In MWO, even as we have rate of fire, the LRM ans SRM are the only weapons who are powered up for dmg.

And in the TT you could fire under the minimum range at a penalty of 1 per hex of minimum.

Regards,
Wargeisen

[SgtMagor]

if anything about missiles I would like changed, is being able to dumb fire them, so when a mech charges you can alpha strike and they will eat all that damage from the missiles. and missile boats like the CAt, would be able to somewhat defend itself from a close range attack.

[Captain Stiffy]

Some might say that using tactics to avoid targeting is the skill component. Some might.

[HugoStiglitz]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 15 March 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

No splash.1 dmg per missile...and speed of PPC and here we go .NP for me...

And then AMS is useless because the missiles are moving too fast. Just remove a good bit of the splash damage and it should be good.

[Lyrik]

Remember that in TT you could oneshot any mech with a critical. So LRM didn't that much more damage but they had increased chances to do crits ;-)

Roll to hit ->Roll to see how any rockets hit -> Divide in clusters of 5 -> Roll where they hit. If you rolled an 2 than you had a critical hit while ignoring armor. If you rolled a 12 on 2D6 than you destroyed the ARM/LEG or had 3 Cricitcals which could be enough to destroy the mech/disabling it etc...

So a LRM20 had at maximum 4 chances to kill a mech in the first round with the first salvo ;-)

And yes, it happened once to my battlemaster ... ok it the second round with a ppc :-P