8 replies to this topic

[Zyzyx66]

Sorry about the groan-inducing new thread about ECM, but it's occured to me that there could be a way for ECM (and other modules too) to remain powerful and game-changing, while bringing tactical options to the table.

Make it an activated ability.

I envision it working pretty much how it already does - it creates a bubble of null-sig around itself that confuses targetting computers, disables missile locks, etc. But the trick is, it has a cooldown. When activated (as a weapon group) it engages a null-sig field around it that lasts for a few seconds (5-10 say). A pretty special effect for team ECMs would be nice to show its area of influence. After a short time, it shuts down to recharge, taking a few seconds (10-20 say).

Something like this would make ECM remain hugely viable, but it would add player agency to its use. A player would need to time it properly, and have proper battlefield awareness to make it as effective as it could be.

I also think, as an aside, that making ECM an activated ability could work in a different way for disruption. In disrupt mode, instead of projecting a bubble, it fires a sort of EMP. Any enemy mech caught in the blast radius has their electrical systems disabled for the length of time required to reboot them. I actually think ECM should only work like this, but that's unlikely to be the case. It would again add player agency, having a cooldown, and it gives useful tactical options without being invisible to the enemy. They see all of their systems crash, losing target lock and paper doll, energy weapons go on cooldown (but not ballistic?...) and for a few short seconds their hud is blind. They can still move and fire.

The simple thought of changing equipment to being activated I think has a lot of potential for all of the other equipment too:

Beagle Active Probe could fire a pulse in a cone ahead of the player that fans out for a good distance ahead and 'pings' all enemies in that cone - so you can see where they are. The ping wouldn't last long and the location indicators would quickly disappear, but the enemy would be marked for all friendlies.

AMS could be more effective against missiles, but require that the AMS be actively fired.

NARC and TAG obviously work similarly to the way they already do.

Any thoughts or feelings about something like this? It's just a thought, but I think it's worth exploring in more detail at least.

Edited by Zyzyx66, 15 March 2013 - 09:13 PM.

[PanzerMagier]

I think you could be on to something about giving things non-static effects, however some things should actually remain static. Like AMS. Since PGI has already shown it's ugly hands that disregard the holy canon, we might as well make use of it. ECM working like an emp sounds like a nice idea but it kinda ruins the use of ecm. Maybe add something entirely different. Give it a different name?

On the other hand...

Maybe they should make Module ECM's that work with a cooldown. I'd love that. There are a lot of mechs I use to ghost with (like my Centurian 9A) to rip on the enemy's back. I would love to see if I could get ecm on that thang, even though it might only be cooldown, timed-effect use.

[CheezPanther]

first take our current ECM... then strip out

1. null signature system
2. stealth armor
3. angel ECM features

Next Fix TAG to work properly as it is not affected by ECM because it is LASER not radio... Light and sound are 2 differnt things.. and they dont really interfere with each other AT ALL..

Then See how ECM performs for a while.

[FrostCollar]

This isn't an awful idea, but for me it fails my first test of ECM balance proposals. That is: would this make not taking ECM a viable option on mechs that can do so?

This would weaken ECM significantly but it would still be powerful enough to be indispensable on every 3L and D-DC out there. That's not good enough. That's why I'm in support of giving ECM disadvantages instead of (solely) weakening its advantages.

[CptBilsn]

CheezPanther, on 15 March 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

first take our current ECM... then strip out

1. null signature system
2. stealth armor
3. angel ECM features

Next Fix TAG to work properly as it is not affected by ECM because it is LASER not radio... Light and sound are 2 differnt things.. and they dont really interfere with each other AT ALL..

Then See how ECM performs for a while.

Just to be on the same page here... ECM suite might not be limmited only to radar jammer - it can work against IR sensors, even Laser markers (by creating false marks), sonars and so on (and thats only what contemporary military counter measures can do)... Thats why it is called ECM suite... Also you are confusing radar and sonar - radar does not use sound, it use radio waves (which are not sound but electromagnetic radiation)...

BUT I agree with you that TAG is illogically broken... As it function now, it can counter ECM at long range (soo, mech's ecm suite doesn't counter laser markers after all) but as soon as you are under jamming bubble of enemy ECM your TAG stops working altogether - ok, it would be fair enough if friendlies ceased to see your TAG's mark (you can't relay your targeting data if your comm is jammed) but why for gods sake it stop function for your own weapons too? Thats what is broken on TAG now... Without this feature those pesky invisible lights could be STREAKED into oblivion by light mech hunters.

I still maintain that good solution would be if ECM cover would decay over time - you are generating EM noise but enemy mechs would adapt and compensate in some time (hey, it could make nice pilot skill - faster ECM adaptation ) - then you have to switch ecm off and change frequencies which would take substantial amount of time (say for example about 30 seconds) - so you would have to think about when and for how long to activate your ecm and not just switch on the ghost mode ad the beginning and run around.

(oh and a side note - decay time would not reset if you only switch ecm off without re-tuning it, so you could not for example write a script to constantly switch ecm on/off to avoid decay - decay timer would still go up with each activation, it could be even made in that way that there is short cooldown between on/off cycle to avoid scripts like that....)

[Zyzyx66]

CptBilsn, on 16 March 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

I still maintain that good solution would be if ECM cover would decay over time - you are generating EM noise but enemy mechs would adapt and compensate in some time (hey, it could make nice pilot skill - faster ECM adaptation ) - then you have to switch ecm off and change frequencies which would take substantial amount of time (say for example about 30 seconds) - so you would have to think about when and for how long to activate your ecm and not just switch on the ghost mode ad the beginning and run around.

An interesting idea and I like the thought that ECM would be less effective the longer it's operational.

The primary purpose of the OP was to point out a different way of looking at the problem beyond tweaking numbers. I've seen three suggestions in the 4 posts already that introduce new and exciting life into a conversation that has long become stagnant with number-whoring (to pardon a phrase).

FronstCollar I totally agree with you - I think the current implementation is FAR too confusing and nebulous, with FAR too many addendums and different ranges for different effects and hidden activity and flashy HUD bits... It's too much. I could make a thread outlining how I think ECM should and could work from the ground up, but so could many other people on this forum. I thought instead of complicating it (and I did cross into a tangent a little :/) I would start with a single idea, and we could all work from there.

CptBilsn points out with a different flavour a similar thought - that ECM, no matter how powerful, should compliment that power with player agency. A decay over time has effectively the same end result as a timed 'ability' use - player agency. That is, ultimately, the problem with ECM well beyond any of the numbers.

[Sinthrow]

ECM counter mode only module, on 5 to 10 non ecm mechs mechs 1 ton 1 slot.. or they could just fix ecm, like so many statments, so many times over and over again. if you put enought band **** on it you will stop the bleeding at some point.

[CheezPanther]

CptBilsn, on 16 March 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

Just to be on the same page here... ECM suite might not be limmited only to radar jammer - it can work against IR sensors, even Laser markers (by creating false marks), sonars and so on (and thats only what contemporary military counter measures can do)... Thats why it is called ECM suite... Also you are confusing radar and sonar - radar does not use sound, it use radio waves (which are not sound but electromagnetic radiation)...

BUT I agree with you that TAG is illogically broken... As it function now, it can counter ECM at long range (soo, mech's ecm suite doesn't counter laser markers after all) but as soon as you are under jamming bubble of enemy ECM your TAG stops working altogether - ok, it would be fair enough if friendlies ceased to see your TAG's mark (you can't relay your targeting data if your comm is jammed) but why for gods sake it stop function for your own weapons too? Thats what is broken on TAG now... Without this feature those pesky invisible lights could be STREAKED into oblivion by light mech hunters.

I still maintain that good solution would be if ECM cover would decay over time - you are generating EM noise but enemy mechs would adapt and compensate in some time (hey, it could make nice pilot skill - faster ECM adaptation ) - then you have to switch ecm off and change frequencies which would take substantial amount of time (say for example about 30 seconds) - so you would have to think about when and for how long to activate your ecm and not just switch on the ghost mode ad the beginning and run around.

(oh and a side note - decay time would not reset if you only switch ecm off without re-tuning it, so you could not for example write a script to constantly switch ecm on/off to avoid decay - decay timer would still go up with each activation, it could be even made in that way that there is short cooldown between on/off cycle to avoid scripts like that....)

ok confusing sond/radio not very far apart as say how radio works from laser..

but really the thing is that they have gone and implemented ANGEL ECM suite and other tech from further into the future than we are at in the timeline..

And in tt / canon lore Gaurdian was not able to counter TAG systems..

If u were to emit false laser pointers u'd need to be able to mount numerous TAG-like systems to emit these false TAG markers.. TAG adds a ton to be able to mark targets at ranges.. Feel like adding 5 tons to your mech in order to counter 1 laser dot with 5 or more dots... all in hopes that the missile picks the wrong one.. Which it cant due to the fact that TAG also incorporates LASER DATA TRANSMISSION...

Sarna.net said:

Target Acquisition Gear is an advanced targeting device for use by artillery spotters. The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles

[CptBilsn]

CheezPanther, on 16 March 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

ok confusing sond/radio not very far apart as say how radio works from laser..

but really the thing is that they have gone and implemented ANGEL ECM suite and other tech from further into the future than we are at in the timeline..

And in tt / canon lore Gaurdian was not able to counter TAG systems..

If u were to emit false laser pointers u'd need to be able to mount numerous TAG-like systems to emit these false TAG markers.. TAG adds a ton to be able to mark targets at ranges.. Feel like adding 5 tons to your mech in order to counter 1 laser dot with 5 or more dots... all in hopes that the missile picks the wrong one.. Which it cant due to the fact that TAG also incorporates LASER DATA TRANSMISSION...

But I more of less agree with on this part you in my original post.

TAG is currently not countered by ECM (sort of anyway) - actually it is the other way around, ECM is countered by TAG, but only on long range (about 200+ meters) - if you TAG ECM-covered target in this range you break his cover and he becomes target-able for as long as you are TAGing him.

Problem however is that when you move to short range, enemy ECM start to disrupt your communication, which (as it stands now) prevents you to share your targeting data with lance-mates, therefore making them unable to 'see' your TAG mark - logic behind this might be that you cannot share target data, therefore cannot tell friendlies how they targeting computers recognize your TAG mark - it is questionable logic (which I might not entirely agree with) but at least it's something.

What is broken though is, that as soon as you are ECM jammed you cease to see your own TAG mark <- this is IMHO the broken part of TAG/ECM behavior. If ECM suite does no actively counter TAG - which we know it doesn't (or at least shouldn't) you should be able to see your own TAG mark and be able to exploit it - ie. target painted mech.

Of course, the discussion whether Guardian ECM Suite is suppose to make you untargetable for SSRMs and LRMs according to BattleTech canon is entirely different matter (and probably OT in this tread).