62 replies to this topic

[Woodstock]

Hey

As it says on the tin:

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

Any reasons?

Will the DEV's be continuing with this trend?

[Karl Streiger]

When you found the reason i would be pleased.
Thanks to DHS the ER-PPC is simple a no - brainer. Same as with no minimal range for Clan LRM...only a failed test to make the game easier? I duno!

[Drogo-MA]

the ER PPC was given no minimum with the Clan to show the power of the Clan tech and their developers. In response the IS created the ER PPC (thanks to help from the Lostech files and Comstar) but with less power. However, because of the no minimum the IS (and game developers) saw that the extra heat was worth it.

Hope that helps.

[William Petersen]

The bane of gaming everywhere: Power Creep (or Power Leap, either one). That pretty much covers it.

[Woodstock]

William Petersen, on 31 May 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

The bane of gaming everywhere: Power Creep (or Power Leap, either one). That pretty much covers it.

sorry were you speaking English then? Power leap/Power Creep?

[EisenSturm88]

Actually the ER PPC was developed by the star league. The clans had simply improved upon that tech whereas the IS had lost the ability to produce it. I think the reason for them removing the min range was because a 20ish percent increase to range alone was not worth 50 percent more heat, It also helps to distinguish the two weapons from eachother. I'm sure there was an explination in the original fluff (TR:2750), but the thing to keep in mind that Battletech is a game not a simulation. It is about fun not being realistic. I'm not sure how min range on derect fire weapons will be implemented, but it would be good to maintain the ER PPC's lack of a min range. Other wise you will be causing a lot more heat per shot just to get one shot in before he closes with a normal PPC. And if due to terrain it starts out closer ER PPCs will be very inefficient.

[William Petersen]

Woodstock, on 31 May 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

sorry were you speaking English then? Power leap/Power Creep?

If you're too lazy to google, I'm too lazy to explain.

[EisenSturm88]

I don't believe this is an example of power creep. I actually prefer standard ppcs most of the time myself.

[Karl Streiger]

When it would have been a 20% more "long" range but it is the improved short or medium range of the ER-PPC
it won't hurt you to throw away a LRM 15 for a ER-PPC when using DHS

The normal PPC had a shorter minimum range but also a shorter long range - so both weapons were worth
the ER - PPC had no minimum range and a longer long range - in comparison the LRM suck

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Power Creep is the tendancy for all new weapons/systems to be more powerful than those that they replace.In MW that means the Level 2 tech replaces or makes obsolete the Level 1 tech. ie the ERPPC has more range and no minimum range at the expense of more heat, which is taken care of by using DHS.

[EisenSturm88]

LRMs were more useful when combined with battle armor to surve as spotters for inderect fire. Increasing the short range by one and the medium by two is still only an advantage on those turns in which you won the initiative for the most part. There is still room for designs such as the AWS-9Q.

[AikiGhost]

William Petersen, on 31 May 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

The bane of gaming everywhere: Power Creep (or Power Leap, either one). That pretty much covers it.

Agreed. The clans in general were just power creeping mary sues anyway. Also its hard to simulate a "-2 to hit per hex" in a FPS style videogame.

[Dragon Lady]

Woodstock, on 31 May 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

sorry were you speaking English then? Power leap/Power Creep?

Power Creep: A term used to describe when new content added to a game is overpowered compared to what came before. After several cycles of this, new content as become so powerful, the original stuff is so weak, it'll never be used again.

This is what happened in Battletech:

Original Battletech (Technical 3025) everything was well balanced against each other. There was no clearly better weapons systems, and every decision made in 'Mech design was a tradeoff.

Star League ubertech (Technical Readout 2750) introduced the most unbalancing components in the game: the Double Heatsink, the XL engines, and the Gauss Rifle. The DHS created the possibility of laser boating, and removed the heat penalties to ER-energy weapons. The XL engine eased the penalties for choosing a heavier 'Mech. And a Gauss Rifle was a ballistic weapon without the penalties inherant in a ballistic weapon.

Clan Tech (Technical Readout 3050) was Star League ubertech on steroids. The weapons were better, and the penalties fewer. Which would've never been needed if FASA hadn't introduced Star League tech to the game already.

While all this made great fiction, it also turned the Table Top Game from chess to checkers. At least in my opinion.

[Karl Streiger]

and Total War is ueber Star League ubertech on steroids

and Total War X-Tech is... duno well you can use nukes have the same effect

[Woodstock]

Dragon Lady, on 31 May 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Power Creep: A term used to describe when new content added to a game is overpowered compared to what came before. After several cycles of this, new content as become so powerful, the original stuff is so weak, it'll never be used again.

This is what happened in Battletech:

Original Battletech (Technical 3025) everything was well balanced against each other. There was no clearly better weapons systems, and every decision made in 'Mech design was a tradeoff.

Star League ubertech (Technical Readout 2750) introduced the most unbalancing components in the game: the Double Heatsink, the XL engines, and the Gauss Rifle. The DHS created the possibility of laser boating, and removed the heat penalties to ER-energy weapons. The XL engine eased the penalties for choosing a heavier 'Mech. And a Gauss Rifle was a ballistic weapon without the penalties inherant in a ballistic weapon.

Clan Tech (Technical Readout 3050) was Star League ubertech on steroids. The weapons were better, and the penalties fewer. Which would've never been needed if FASA hadn't introduced Star League tech to the game already.

While all this made great fiction, it also turned the Table Top Game from chess to checkers. At least in my opinion.

the thing about the clans that I liked though ...and this really is the ONLY thing about the clans that I like ... is that they were meant to be outnumbered but still HARD.

The problem with the gaming world is ... that effect is often not represented in the gaming community.

So many people want the strongest kit ... soooo they play the clans (not all ...some actually like clan culture?!?!) My worry about MWO is that when the clans arrive they will just be another playable faction and 70% of the player base will switch to the clans ... cos their uber like man!

I approve 100% of the power of clan weapons ... just the IP limits on who uses them should be reflected in the MWO game.

[Karl Streiger]

But you can be sure that the 30% that remain are die hard IS warriors - hell will freeze before we will become clan

BT:
to be fair i duno how to implement a useful minimal range for ppcs. LRMs is clear and can be seen in the vid...but PPCs?

[Alfred VonGunn]

Woodstock, on 31 May 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Hey

As it says on the tin:

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

Any reasons?

Will the DEV's be continuing with this trend?

Because they figureout how to not get feed back at close range would be teh obvious answer.. Based on what the same site says teh reason for teh minimum range for a PPC was..

[Kittygrinder]

William Petersen, on 31 May 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

The bane of gaming everywhere: Power Creep (or Power Leap, either one). That pretty much covers it.

There is no power creep in Battletech. Everything is balanced in its own way.

ERPPC's have more range and no minimum, but heat like crazy(15).

Standard PPC's dont heat a whole lot(10) (especially with the advent of double heat sinks) and have the same damage(10) with less range and a Minimum.

Heavy PPC's Are the same range increments of a standard PPC, but with the heat of an ER(15) and the damage of a Clan ERPPC(15).

In battletech, weapons have advantages and disadvantages. I tend to like standard PPC's and Heavy PPC's (when do i go for PPC's, im more of an A/C kind of guy). And thats because the ranges for those weapons are better for the way i tend to play.

[Sassori]

I still prefer normal PPC's over ER PPC's, at least the IS versions of ER PPC's. The 50% additional heat is insane imho and any platform that relies on ER PPC's is not a very well balanced machine even with double heat sinks because of the crit space required for /those/ also.

At least with Clan ER PPC you get 15 damage for the 15 heat at those ranges which makes it comparable to the Gauss Rifle but for the IS? ER PPC is simply not worth it. If you're worried about in close range use a normal PPC and take those crit slots used by 1 heat sinks for 3 medium lasers.

But maybe that's just my opinion.

[Woodstock]

Christopher Dayson, on 31 May 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

I still prefer normal PPC's over ER PPC's, at least the IS versions of ER PPC's. The 50% additional heat is insane imho and any platform that relies on ER PPC's is not a very well balanced machine even with double heat sinks because of the crit space required for /those/ also.

At least with Clan ER PPC you get 15 damage for the 15 heat at those ranges which makes it comparable to the Gauss Rifle but for the IS? ER PPC is simply not worth it. If you're worried about in close range use a normal PPC and take those crit slots used by 1 heat sinks for 3 medium lasers.

But maybe that's just my opinion.

The only ER PPC I would fit would be a to a 30ton command / sniper.