21 replies to this topic

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Boating: Loading your mech will all (or nearly all) of the same or similar weapon system in order to achieve a high damage alpha strike, often to a single location.

Arguments in favor of Boating:
-Boats are canon, you can't cripple canon designs.
-Players should be free to build the most effective mechs they can within the current system, without being artificially hampered.
-They're effective, and you should always use the most effective thing in a competitive environment.
-Specialization creates weaknesses (so they're not OP, lrn2play).
- Fun to play.

Arguments against Boating:
-It renders some variants or entire chassis obsolete or sub-optimal if they can't boat.
-Punishes flexibility while rewarding specialization, thereby making the game more arcade-like and less simulation-like.
-Too effective compared to balanced builds (the definition of OP).
-Limits tactical depth by creating a narrower range of viable builds.
-Doesn't suit my playstyle, and I don't want to feel forced into it to compete.
-Makes the game boring.

The Problem: There are good arguments both for and against "boating". I don't fall into either of the above camps, but I do think the game needs some changes in order to achieve a better state of balance than it has now. Boats currently have more advantages than balanced builds, and I would like to see both options be viable.

Proposed solution to make BOTH boats and balanced builds viable: Increased cooldown for group fired weapons on a non-linear scale.

Example:
Group fire 1-2 PPCs: 3 second cooldown (current default)
3 PPCs: 4 second cooldown
4-5 PPCs: 6 second cooldown
6+ PPCs: 10 seconds

In this example, you could still run a 6 PPC Stalker without too much change in your playstyle, but you could find an advantage in group firing 2-2-2, 3-3, or 6 at once depending on the situation. BUT you could also run fewer PPCs and have some lasers or missiles to give tactical flexibility without being too disadvantaged, since you would have a rate-of-fire advantage over the boat.

This would have to be worked out on a weapon-system-by-weapon-system basis, I'm sure you can think of numbers to apply to any commonly-boated systems.

For a heavy ballistic system like the Gauss or AC20, it could be as simple as doubling the cooldown when they're fired in groups of two or more. They could still be chain-fired for the same DPS they've always had, just without the crazy rage-inducing alpha to a single point (unless you aim is just that good ).

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

I think that the boats are fine as they are, no need for special rules regarding heat.

For those who want to cry over boats....

GET OVER IT!!!


It's been part of MW and BT since the beginning and will not change. Stop complaining about it and figure out how to beat it, I have! Even in MWLL which restricted boating by having no mechlab had a few boats, the Fafnir with 4 LBX-20 (Power Glove), the 4 PPC Nova Cat with JJ's, the 4 LRM 20 Vulture (Mad Dog). Boating is part of this game, accept it, learn how to fight it, and for god sakes stop crying over it, it won't do any good, it only makes things nerf!

Edited by Werewolf486, 18 March 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Werewolf486, on 18 March 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

GET OVER IT!!!


It's been part of MW and BT since the beginning and will not change. Stop complaining about it and figure out how to beat it, I have! Even in MWLL which restricted boating by having no mechlab had a few boats, the Fafnir with 4 LBX-20 (Power Glove), the 4 PPC Nova Cat with JJ's, the 4 LRM 20 Vulture (Mad Dog). Boating is part of this game, accept it, learn how to fight it, and for god sakes stop crying over it, it won't do any good, it only makes things nerf!

ROFLMAO!

You didn't even read the post!

There was no crying!

I support continued boating, and proposed a solution that would also make non-boats viable and competitive right along side them. Non-boats are canon too ya'know

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 18 March 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

ROFLMAO!

You didn't even read the post!

There was no crying!

I support continued boating, and proposed a solution that would also make non-boats viable and competitive right along side them. Non-boats are canon too ya'know

That was directed at those who will be here to cry over it, not you.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Werewolf486, on 18 March 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

That was directed at those who will be here to cry over it, not you.

Oh jeeze, you scared me

[Sulf]

This is well written and thoughtful. In addition to this solution there could be different variants of this effect.
For example:
-PPCs lose convergence when fired together. Meaning the shots spread. Frankly this should already be part of ppc mechanics in a milder form. imo.
-Missiles have increased heat when fired together. ect.
-These three mechanics might also combine with each other in various amounts.

[Roadbeer]

I've been ignoring this thread as just another anti-boat rant... so I was feeling trolly and was pleasantly surprised.

Well thought out post.

Going along the lines with Brickyard's thought. High level ballistics would also have their convergence effected from recoil.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Brickyard, on 18 March 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

This is well written and thoughtful. In addition to this solution there could be different variants of this effect.
For example:
-PPCs lose convergence when fired together. Meaning the shots spread. Frankly this should already be part of ppc mechanics in a milder form. imo.
-Missiles have increased heat when fired together. ect.
-These three mechanics might also combine with each other in various amounts.

Yea, that's the kind of stuff that could definitely work too. I'm just hoping to get the devs thinking about ways to make a wider variety of builds competitive without completely destroying what is competitive now.

Roadbeer, on 18 March 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

I've been ignoring this thread as just another anti-boat rant... so I was feeling trolly and was pleasantly surprised.

Well thought out post.

Going along the lines with Brickyard's thought. High level ballistics would also have their convergence effected from recoil.

Heh, probably why it's not getting many views. I'll troll in general discussion all day long, but never in suggestions or feedback

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 18 March 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[Donas]

Werewolf486, on 18 March 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

For those who want to cry over boats....

GET OVER IT!!!

As long as the folks in boats stop requesting map/mech selectability because their 'speciaized build' is suddenly 'useless' on Alpine Peaks, I'm all for this mentality.

Boats can be fun, as long as they have some sort of balancing factor. Whether that be extended cooldowns, negative tactical effects from the environment, or whatever.

[Joe Mallad]

here is my take on it. I dont mind if someone boats. But im more of a purest. What I mean by that is if you are going to boat, than by all means boat mech that were meant to be boats. Now... i know some mech like the 5 to 6 PPC is a current boat but in my "purest" mindset... it was not meant to be a PPC boat. Im not saying anyone has to like the way I think, follow the way I think and or I really dont care if you think Im wrong for the way I think. The Stalker in all its forms was meant to be a Missile boat first and foremost with added laser hard points for more of a backbone defense setup. The Catapult A1 IS meant to be a missile boat. I have never screamed it had to be nerfed or taken out of the game. My problem was that something was off with SRMs and Streaks and we now know their splash damage was way off.

Once these missile types get fixed, maybe the SRM Splat Cat wont be all that OP. The Awesome WAS always meant to be the PPC boat yet a mech such as the Stalker that was never meant for that role is better in every way lol. So either the Mech that was meant to be the PPC boat needs reworking or the mech that is the PPC boat needs reworking

We have Cataphracts that boat ballistic weapons... they are fine because they do what they were intended to. We have the Swayback that is meant to be a laser boat. It too is fine. We have many other mech and variants that are meant to be missile boats in some fashion. These too are fine. Boats are needed but there are just a few mechs and variants that are the current boats that either need to be reworked to do what they were intended for or the weapon systems... SSRMs, SRMS, and PPCs need to be reworked.

[Zyllos]

Weapon convergence is the issue, not boats.

The ability to have all weapons hit a single location is what is causing balance issues.

The DGN-1N is a good example of a balanced mech in terms of weapon convergence.

It is extremely difficult to have the laser and ballistic hardpoints to hit a single location when firing due to movement. The ballistic will have to be aimed in front of the target to land so you can't fire your other arm laser. And when firing the arm or torso laser, you can't have the other land on the same location due to the different ridicules, which is the point of having torso and arm crosshairs, so you have to take your time to have weapons land on the same spot.

But there are mechs that can easily circumvent this. The arm/torso weapon convergence is too narrow for balancing many weapons across different locations for spreading out damage.

[Kahoumono]

Whatever the fix is some one will complain but something needs to be done. The cannon arguments about boats is only half correct since cannon mechs capable of boating had weaknesses in most cases. The ECM raven wasn't running around at 100+, even the warhawk and novacat didn't have enough heatsinks to be able to continuously fire all their weapons. The boats we see running around in this game are highly modified running XL engines, double heat sinks, etc. I am not against stacking weapons per se but boats should not be able to have all their weapons converge in one location, this is where skill should be involved. A spread of 30+ missles shouldn't be able to travel so tightly without accidental detonation or being easily taken out by ams. Energy and ballastic weapons should not converge if they are fired from different parts of the body. I have said several times in other posts if they don't make actual changes to the dynamics of the weapons just implement a diminishing returns model, fire the same weapons together will yield you less damage. This should be simple to implement.

[Asmosis]

There is no issue with boating.

All boating does is highlight weapons that may be better than they should be, because if the weapon was properly balanced it wouldnt matter if they were boated in the first place.

I'm not saying the currently boated weapons (med lasers, large lasers, srm6's, ssrm2's, ac2's ac5's ac20's gauss, lrms, ppcs, er ppcs) are better than they should be, just that boating highlights the weapon imbalances.

But, given that almost all weapons except the small caliber ones are boated, there probably isnt an issue aside from some peoples inability to adapt to the battlefield presented, who only apply one course of action regardless of what their opponent is fielding. Those are the people who dont like boats.

Also cats dont like boats. they dont like anything vaguely related to anything aquatic. aside from fish.

Edited by Asmosis, 19 March 2013 - 12:34 AM.

[Syllogy]

Apparently, your "fix" does not please everyone.

[Lightfoot]

I voted, No, because Battletech already has anti-boating built into it's core dynamic and most of that is in MWO, but not quite all yet. Such as, there doesn't seem to be the Mech Explodes heat cap yet, even though you can kill the mech with too much overheating.

The Anti-Boating in Battletech and MWO mechanic is this:

Ballistic weaknesses are weight and ammo and usually range.

Energy weakness is high heat.

Missile weaknesses are ammo and range.

So, when you make a boat you end up with a massive weakness, and when you balance the weaknesses you end up with the best of the best mechs on the field. And MWO is definately utilizing this mechanic. Boats in MWO are all very weak in some way. Hit them there, don't re-design Battletech.

[focuspark]

voted no without reading... because any rule that applies directly to "boating" I'm against. It over complicates things and punishes specialization, which is a trend humanity has been on for 50,000 years now (specialization not the punishment of it).

Edited by focuspark, 19 March 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

focuspark, on 19 March 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

voted no without reading... because any rule that applies directly to "boating" I'm against. It over complicates things and punishes specialization, which is a trend humanity has been on for 50,000 years now (specialization not the punishment of it).

Thanks for that! I really appreciate you dismissing the idea without actually knowing what it is! That's some real efficiency there!

The TL;DR version is: Boating is preserved, but non-boats get some advantages that make them viable as well.

As for your philosophical argument in favor of specialization; a single battlemech is supposed to be a replacement for an entire unit of traditional soldiers, anywhere from a platoon up to an entire battalion (depending on how far you want to take the metaphor, a lance could be a replacement for a whole brigade or division, etc. etc.). Units that size may be specialized in a specific task, but they are never completely homogeneous.

[MasterErrant]

the only thing I agree on is weapon convergence the basic mech design and balance does not reall support the kind of precision allowed in this game.

[focuspark]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 19 March 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Thanks for that! I really appreciate you dismissing the idea without actually knowing what it is! That's some real efficiency there!

The TL;DR version is: Boating is preserved, but non-boats get some advantages that make them viable as well.

As for your philosophical argument in favor of specialization; a single battlemech is supposed to be a replacement for an entire unit of traditional soldiers, anywhere from a platoon up to an entire battalion (depending on how far you want to take the metaphor, a lance could be a replacement for a whole brigade or division, etc. etc.). Units that size may be specialized in a specific task, but they are never completely homogeneous.

Hey no problem, I try and be efficient.

As for the replacement for an entire unit - yeah sure and a MBT is a replacement for an entire legion of phalanx, but it's still super specialized. Specialization is how people and machine excel. Artificially punishing specialization or boosting generalization is a mistake IMO. Still voting no - and hey, at least I was honest about how and why I voted. I could have just hit no and walked away - so don't get too upset with me.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

focuspark, on 19 March 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Hey no problem, I try and be efficient.

As for the replacement for an entire unit - yeah sure and a MBT is a replacement for an entire legion of phalanx, but it's still super specialized. Specialization is how people and machine excel. Artificially punishing specialization or boosting generalization is a mistake IMO. Still voting no - and hey, at least I was honest about how and why I voted. I could have just hit no and walked away - so don't get too upset with me.

An MBT carries a coaxial .50 cal and a cupola-mounted machine gun. Yes it has a specialized task (killing enemy armor), but it's still prepared to deal with light vehicles and infantry, so it's not a "boat".

Artillerists still carry sidearms and crew served weapons for defense, infantry includes mortars and light AT, even battleships have small arms on board. Those are all specialized units that would be less effective if they only did one thing,so none of them are "boats" in the sense that we use the term around here.

I can't think of anything in any modern military that is as specialized as what we're talking about when we say "boat" in regards to MWO. Specialization is good, sure, but overspecialization is tunnel-vision.

I'm not proposing a system that makes mechs with 2B, 2M, and 2E for hardpoints the best, just a system that rewards you for having a bit of a backup on your otherwise specialized build.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 19 March 2013 - 02:31 PM.