93 replies to this topic

[Royalewithcheese]

Khell DarkWolf, on 19 March 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

The idea here though is:

Break a variant apart, make one that would even be remotely useful.

And I'm not talking about the AC/20 builds as already predicted/put forth

JM: anything an Ilya can do, but ~10 kph faster and with better gun placement + almost certainly better hitboxes.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 19 March 2013 - 05:33 AM.

[Peter von Danzig]

It's a paper mech with 420 armor max. You won't get into range to fire your dual ac20 on open maps.
So only choice for me would be a long range sniper... But after knowing the stats, I am pretty sure that I won't waste my c-bills for it.

[Judge Redeemer]

Mounting anything for close range combat on jager would be a bit silly and I'll state two reasons for that

1) Carrying only a miserly six tons of standard armor, the JagerMech is very vulnerable to return fire. (for example catapracht has 11 tons, and Cat who has 10 tons)
2) Designed as an anti-aircraft platform and long-range fire support unit.

so my bet gauss, ppc or lrm would be best combination

[Orzorn]

*******, on 19 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

AC2s have a small alpha. On paper they have the third highest DPS of all the balistic weapons, beat out only by the UAC5 (highest) and then the AC20. However, in practice, they can do a lot more damage if:
1) You are not dead accurate with your guns. Because the AC20 has a 4 second reload, if you miss, you miss. With the AC2s, you are firing twice a second. You can pull a bead onto the target and then hold it there, pummeling him.
2) Range. Alpine is out. Desert should be out today too. The AC2 is very effective at long range. Sure the UAC5 can hit almost the same range, 1800m vs 2200m, the shells fly at 1300mps vs 2000 mps. So at extreme range, you have to really lead your targets with the UAC5, you dont have to lead to the same extent with the AC2. This combined with a bit of lag makes the AC2 the king of the long range weapons.
3) Multiple balistic slots. A single AC20 weighs 15 tons and takes up 10 slots. It will do 5.0 dps. Two AC2s weigh 12 tons, take up 2 slots, and will do 8 dps.

When the meta of the game moves slightly away from close quarters splat builds, longer range weapons will become much more valuable.

That theoretical DPS is nice and all, but it does not last once you reach your heat cap and have to slow down your firing, which you absolutely will with even a low number of AC/2s.

As an aside, your name being censored is absolutely bizarre to me. This forum's censorship list is way too large. Searching the word reveals its apparently an Italian swear word, however.

Edited by Orzorn, 19 March 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Phoenix Gray]

*******, on 19 March 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

AC2s have a small alpha. On paper they have the third highest DPS of all the balistic weapons, beat out only by the UAC5 (highest) and then the AC20. However, in practice, they can do a lot more damage if:
1) You are not dead accurate with your guns. Because the AC20 has a 4 second reload, if you miss, you miss. With the AC2s, you are firing twice a second. You can pull a bead onto the target and then hold it there, pummeling him.
2) Range. Alpine is out. Desert should be out today too. The AC2 is very effective at long range. Sure the UAC5 can hit almost the same range, 1800m vs 2200m, the shells fly at 1300mps vs 2000 mps. So at extreme range, you have to really lead your targets with the UAC5, you dont have to lead to the same extent with the AC2. This combined with a bit of lag makes the AC2 the king of the long range weapons.
3) Multiple balistic slots. A single AC20 weighs 15 tons and takes up 10 slots. It will do 5.0 dps. Two AC2s weigh 12 tons, take up 2 slots, and will do 8 dps.

When the meta of the game moves slightly away from close quarters splat builds, longer range weapons will become much more valuable.

And with the debut of Artillery and Airstrike formations are going to have to open up to survive, so longer-range weapons will become important anyway. I'm surprised LRM boats haven't already had that effect.

[Vincent Lynch]

Peter von Danzig, on 19 March 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

It's a paper mech with 420 armor max. You won't get into range to fire your dual ac20 on open maps.
So only choice for me would be a long range sniper... But after knowing the stats, I am pretty sure that I won't waste my c-bills for it.

Judge Redeemer, on 19 March 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

Mounting anything for close range combat on jager would be a bit silly and I'll state two reasons for that

1) Carrying only a miserly six tons of standard armor, the JagerMech is very vulnerable to return fire. (for example catapracht has 11 tons, and Cat who has 10 tons)
2) Designed as an anti-aircraft platform and long-range fire support unit.

so my bet gauss, ppc or lrm would be best combination

*massive facepalm*
you can put more armor on it! twice as much as the JM6-S comes with, actually!

[Buckminster]

Vincent Lynch, on 19 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

*massive facepalm*
you can put more armor on it! twice as much as the JM6-S comes with, actually!

It is funny to see people complaining about the standard armor...

I always loved the Rifleman in TT, and I have a feeling this is as close as I'm going to get. Even though I already have a 65 ton mech in the Catapult, the promise of lots of dakka has me seriously considering a JM.

[Buckminster]

Khell DarkWolf, on 19 March 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

The idea here though is:

Break a variant apart, make one that would even be remotely useful.

And I'm not talking about the AC/20 builds as already predicted/put forth

Really, it's the quad AC/5 and the six AC/2 variants I'm looking forward to. How effective they'll be remain to be seen, but the idea of being able to just send huge amounts of shells down range sounds fun.

Or there is always taking this:

Gregarius, on 19 March 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:

JM6-DD

XL260 Engine (64.8 KPH)
10 Standard Heatsinks
2x UAC5′s, 2x AC2′s, 2x Medium Pulse Lasers
Ferro Fibrous Armor 232/422
6 Ballistic Harpoints (3 in each arm), 2 Energy Hardpoints (1 in each side torso)

And putting 6 MGs and 2 flamers in it. Let hilarity ensue.

[Rubidiy]

For now, before mech's released it seems highly inconvenient to use SRMs on this chassis.
His fate is ballistics, although I managed to scramble a build with 2 ER PPCs and 2 PPCs
Main problem of this chassis is weight of ballistics. There are hardly any suitable builds for Jager without XL engine... and soon enough everyone will know that and aim for his Left or right torsos... It will make his life in battle miserably short.

Edited by Rubidiy, 19 March 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[Gigastrike]

Rubidiy, on 19 March 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

For now, before mech's released it seems highly inconvenient to use SRMs on this chassis.
His fate is ballistics, although I managed to scramble a build with 2 ER PPCs and 2 PPCs
Main problem of this chassis is weight of ballistics. There are hardly any suitable builds for Jager without XL engine... and soon enough everyone will know that and aim for his Left or right torsos... It will make his life in battle miserably short.

With how well rounded the one variant with the missiles is, I feel like it wouldn't be that difficult to make a standard engine brawler out of it. Maybe something with an AC/10, 2 SRM6s, and a couple medium lasers.

Reason why I want try this is because its side torsos look massive, and it'd be a shame of you couldn't use them to protect the center torso.

[Peter von Danzig]

Vincent Lynch, on 19 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

*massive facepalm*
you can put more armor on it! twice as much as the JM6-S comes with, actually!

*massive facepalm*

It has several ballistic hard points and since ballistic weapons are quite heavy you will HAVE TO use XL engines AND you won't be able to put all of your tonnage (only 65 btw) into your armor.

Edited by Peter von Danzig, 19 March 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Judge Redeemer, on 19 March 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

1) Carrying only a miserly six tons of standard armor, the JagerMech is very vulnerable to return fire. (for example catapracht has 11 tons, and Cat who has 10 tons)
2) Designed as an anti-aircraft platform and long-range fire support unit.

Neither of which means anything in actual game terms haha. Dominant loadout will probably be a fast AC40 boat.

Peter von Danzig, on 19 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

*massive facepalm*

It has several ballistic hard points and since ballistic weapons are quite heavy you will HAVE TO use a XL engine and you won't be able to put all of your tonnage (only 65 btw) into your armor.

You can fit an AC40, as much ammo as ppl run on the boomcat, and max armor on everything but legs with an XL300, or more ammo and/or backup weapons with an XL280.

[HlynkaCG]

Peter von Danzig, on 19 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Vincent Lynch, on 19 March 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

*massive facepalm*
you can put more armor on it! twice as much as the JM6-S comes with, actually!

*massive facepalm*

It has several ballistic hard points and since ballistic weapons are quite heavy you will HAVE TO use XL engines AND you won't be able to put all of your tonnage (only 65 btw) into your armor.

*Continues train of facepalming*

Unless they make the Jagermech bigger than a Cataphract, The Jagermech's hitboxes will be similar to those of a Centurion or Hunchback. If you take a stock a JR6, add Endo-steele to it, and then spend the freed tonnage on armor, you can get you a 'mech that has the same speed and protection as a stock hunchback. Basically we're talking about a with extra hard-points and an additional 7 tonnes of weapons to play with.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 19 March 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[Tahribator]

I think with all that armor points missing, side torsos being easy to hit(making STD almost mandatory) and mainly ballistic(heavy) loadout there will be many weight issues.

Edited by Tahribator, 19 March 2013 - 11:45 AM.

[Peter von Danzig]

HlynkaCG, on 19 March 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

*Continues train of facepalming*

Unless they make the Jagermech bigger than a Cataphract, The Jagermech's hitboxes will be similar to those of a Centurion or Hunchback. Taking to a stock a JR6, adding Endo-steele to it, and then spending the freed tonnage on armor, gives you a mech similar speed and protection to a stock hunchback.

The only difference will be hard-points and the fact that it has an extra 7 tonnes play with.


If you think you need an xl engine to make that viable I suggest you stick to piloting lights

No, I don't. I play assaults.

As I said already, the JM uses Ballistics. That means - in case you use four of them - you need to put XL in your mech. This ist pure death to any mech slower than 100 kph.

Edited by Peter von Danzig, 19 March 2013 - 11:36 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

Tahribator, on 19 March 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

I think with all that armor points missing, side torsos being easy to hit(making STD almost mandatory) and mainly ballisti(heavy) loadout I anticipate many weight issues.

I disagree, Pretty much anything you can do in a K2 you can do in a Jagermech better, some how I don't see that fact being lost on many people.

[Gandalfrockman]

Peter von Danzig, on 19 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

No, I don't. I play assaults.

As I said already, the JM uses Ballistics. That means - in case you use four of them - you need to put XL in your mech. This ist pure death to any mech slower that 100 kph.

This isnt true, that threshold is dependent on a great many intangibles that we dont know yet. Twist speed, turn speed, how well the higher mounts pay off,hitboxs, etc...

It is indeed viable to run an xl at sub 100 kph speeds. See the triple uac5 ilya builds for an example. how you attack and the threat level you present in a head to head are very impoortant factors, and we just dont have enough information yet.

[CarnifexMaximus]

Seems like the engines that will be optimal for the Jagermech are the XL 255, XL 265 and XL 280. I cant figure out a build that I like that uses an XL 300, which is a shame because the XL 300 on a Catapult really turns it into a beast.

I have been considering several builds all of them look promising on paper:

My top 3 winners from last night's brainstorming (in no particular order):

No. 1
Engine: 280 XL Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel Internals
Armor Type: Standard Armor
Heat Sinks: 14 (11) Double Heat Sinks
Speed: 69.8 kph
Armor Total: 400
Alpha Strike Damage: 34.00
Armament: 2xUAC5 (5 Tons Ammo), 4 MPulse

No. 2
Engine: 255 XL Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel Internals
Armor Type: Standard Armor
Heat Sinks: 12 (10) Double Heat Sinks
Speed: 63.6 kph
Armor Total: 384
Alpha Strike Damage: 40.00
Armament: 1 Gauss Rifle (3 Tons Ammo), 1 UAC5 (4 Tons Ammo), 4 MLas

No. 3
Engine: 255 XL Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel Internals
Armor Type: Standard Armor
Heat Sinks: 10 (10) Double Heat Sinks
Speed: 63.6 kph
Armor Total: 384
Alpha Strike Damage: 45.00
Armament: 1 Gauss Rifle (3 Tons Ammo), 1 AC/20 (3 Tons Ammo), 2 MLas

Has anyone got an actual ballistic build in mind that uses a XL 300?

[HlynkaCG]

Peter von Danzig, on 19 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

No, I don't. I play assaults.

As I said already, the JM uses Ballistics. That means - in case you use four of them - you need to put XL in your mech. This ist pure death to any mech slower than 100 kph.

You must have a different deffinition of "need", Quick back-of-the-napkin calculations would seem to indicate that just by using endo-steel you should be able to get the Jager's armor up to 308 without sacrificing speed or firepower. That's a perfectly reasonable amount of armor for someone who isn't brawling.

Really the Jagermech is just a reskinned K2 and nobody is arguing that the K2 is nonviable are they?

ETA:
Sorry about the stealth edit, I made the crack about the light mechs, but after reading it I thought that it might of crossed the line into insulting and that was not my intent.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 19 March 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Devil Fox]

Well looking at the patch notes is very interesting to see the hardpoint set-up.

DD - 6 Ballistic and 2 energy
A - 4 missile, 2 ballistic and 2 energy
S - 4 Ballistic and 4 energy

I can see long range builds around the DD, the A might become a close range brawler or you mount it up with either a bevy of long range ballistic with plenty of short-range punch. Or the balanced option of the S seems suited to fire support behind the lines covering lanes of fire.