56 replies to this topic

[ArcDemon]

Biggieboy, on 18 March 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

it frequently happens that I get surrounded by a wolf pack of light mechs, and they're tougher than you might think to take them down.

Just remove the word light from that sentence and you have the root of your problem. 3v1 is a bad situation regardless of what the mech composition is. An Atlas is also hard to take down but that won't be your biggest problem if you face 3 of them at once.

While I can't confirm yet if all the Raven hitbox issues are truly fixed, light mechs can be killed just like any other mech. Their speed lets them substitute avoidance for armor - if they dodge 2 of 3 hits it's like they have 3x armor which makes them balanced with other mechs (instead of being useless cannon fodder). For you it means there is less feedback on your progress, you don't get gradual color changes of the armor and instead they're alive one minute and dead the next.

Going back to your original problem, you're facing multiple mechs with no backup. Lights are good at this tactic because while they can't carry many long range weapons like bigger mechs can, they can move around the battlefield and close the distance much faster. If you split off from your team mates they can move in and take advantage before you can correct your mistake. Medium mechs with good engines can actually do this wolf pack flanking thing too, it just needs better coordination. I've seen a pack of Centurions just devastate a team by using their speed to gang up on stragglers, pulling the team apart and then converging on the weakest mech. I've been a part of a Hunchback pack that did the same thing.

The key is not to get seperated, even a single wingman makes a huge difference in how well you perform against multiple light mechs since he can cover your blind spot, the one place where light mechs feel safe.

Today I had a match on Desert in my Commando (our team also had 4 jaggers, an Atlas, a Catapult and a Raven 4X). I advanced from our base at Gamma to quickly grab Epsilon while the rest of the team sort of tried to follow me (I had messaged that I had ep covered), then they changed route toward Theta. On my way back to regroup I spotted a pack of 4 Raven 3Ls heading for our base and reported it to our team. Immediately there where several messages from team mates saying we where doomed. At Theta we encountered the rest of the enemy team - an Atlas with ECM, 2 Awesomes and a Spider. With our 2:1 advantage and the bowl like arena dug out around Theta we didn't have too much trouble beating them and claiming Theta for ourselves (I think we had lost the Raven 4X at that point). Then the Raven 3L pack came back from Gamma and wanted revenge. But this is where the scariest of the light mechs met their match - we where not lone mechs seperated from the group, we where a tight group of mechs and worse we where the ones out numbering them (7 vs 4). We slaughtered the first 3 Ravens much faster then the assault mechs and the last one, damaged and hoping to still win by points (they had 3 points to our 2), made a run for it. As the only light left I chased him down and finished him off leaving us with a win and only a single mech lost.

[Void Angel]

Pando, on 19 March 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Sorry you're having problems with light battlemechs. Did you know we now have what would be referred to as "state rewind" with laser weapons in specific?

I thought state rewind wasn't implemented yet? There is still some lag shield.

Biggieboy, on 18 March 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

I'm enjoying the game and doing pretty ok, there's just one thing i'm having problems with...

Light...mechs *shudder*

it frequently happens that I get surrounded by a wolf pack of light mechs, and they're tougher than you might think to take them down.

So, any general tips on how to tackle light mechs?

Some of this has been touched on before, but I'll give you my take anyway:
First, it's often a bad thing to be off by yourself sniping. It separates you from the team, and lasers point both ways - this is likely why you're dealing with wolf packs of light 'mechs. Maneuver to get good shots, but stay close enough to your team to get support if you get charged.

Similarly, you want to avoid tangling with mutliple enemies. Even three Commandos have 75 tons between them; and collectively, they have more weapon hardpoints and three times the heat dissipation of a Heavy 'mech of the same tonnage. On the other hand, each individual Commando is fragile and knows it. Stay close enough to your teammates that they can support you, and the lights will probably disengage and try for easier prey.

Next, use Lasers. Lasers are your friend with lights, particularly when you're having to dodge around and brawl with them. Every other weapon has a travel time, and that makes it really hard to hit fast-moving targets close by - especially if you're turning at the time you take the shot (release your turn key in the split second you fire, and you'll be LOTS more accurate with any projectile weapon.) Again, Lights are fragile and know it - if you pound them good a couple of times, they may go try to pick on someone else.

Finally, you have to have good piloting. If you are doing the Newbie Circle Dance of Doom with them (where both of you just circle in one direction shooting at each other,) you're playing into their hands. A Light's ability to kill you scales directly with his ability to hit your rear armor. To keep him in your sights, you can slightly lower your speed, "swap ends" by reversing your turn direction and twisting all the way to that side, or simply walk backwards and swap ends as needed in order to force him to stay in front. A good light can stay in the rear arc of a bad heavy or assault for a long time - don't be that bad pilot! =)

You'll really want to employ all of these measures, but the most important one is staying with your team - get their support so that you live long enough to learn the rest of it.

PS: While you will hear it claimed from time to time, LRMs are not a counter to any Light worth his salt - any light (except the Ravens people only play to skill up the chassis so they can pilot their 3L) can run faster than an LRM can track.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 March 2013 - 03:43 PM.

[Nine-Ball]

Medium lasers are most effective against lightmechs. Good chance to hit if you know how to aim and won't be unfriendly to your DHS. Since lights like to fight inclose and circle you to avoid everything, you won't have to worry about being outranged (most of the time).

I'd only recommend Large lasers if your a good shot, and any other traveling weapon (PPCs for example) if you know what you're doing.

Also, people need to quit breaking up their formation when a lone light comes around. Send him packing with a few shots, send a light or couple mediums after him but don't bother turning the entire heavy/assault train around to try and deal with him!

[Chromedbustop]

Break their legs

I had setup a 'phract to use 2x Gauss riffles, mainly for medium range support and I've found that the thing is exceptional at bringing down light mechs. One salvo from both riffles is usually enough to shatter the legs of a light mech.

The downside is that you have to have at least moderately decent aiming and timing. Lasers are more forgiving since you're dealing with unlimited energy, but they take longer too. Thats more time that the light can run around causing trouble or escape.

The weapons you use are up to you, but yeah, learn to aim for the legs. Break the legs and light mechs are virtually useless.

[SPencil]

As a light pilot (ex-assault pilot), I can tell you with certainty that the best way to defend yourself from a light (ECM or not) is to stick close to your teammates with ECM and carry as many SSRM2 launchers as you can. I can't express how deadly SSRMs are against them if you aren't being jammed. LRMs also work, but not as effectively: a good light pilot can usually find cover before the missiles get close unless he's caught in a bad position. They've also been known to actually outrun the majority of the salvo. I've personally used jumpjets to almost completely avoid a salvo that otherwise would have killed me (but I can attribute that more to luck, as jumping while locked will usually get a light killed).

If SSRMs are not an option, the next best option is to sweep the legs, only aiming at the torso if they have a cored section (since most lights running ~150 Km/h have XL engines in them). Lasers are good, ballistics are not. Unless you have a lot of dakka potential to spray at them or are very accurate, you'll generally miss if they know what they're doing.

They aren't impossible to kill, but they are tricky.

Edited by SPencil, 23 March 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[Void Angel]

A good light pilot will laugh at you as he turns at right angles to your line of fire - most lights (all the ones that people use by choice) move faster than the missiles can turn.

[Cyke]

Chromedbustop, on 23 March 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Break their legs

I had setup a 'phract to use 2x Gauss riffles, mainly for medium range support and I've found that the thing is exceptional at bringing down light mechs. One salvo from both riffles is usually enough to shatter the legs of a light mech.

The downside is that you have to have at least moderately decent aiming and timing. Lasers are more forgiving since you're dealing with unlimited energy, but they take longer too. Thats more time that the light can run around causing trouble or escape.

The weapons you use are up to you, but yeah, learn to aim for the legs. Break the legs and light mechs are virtually useless.

Regarding Gauss Rifles and PPCs, it's certainly hard to hit at Light 'Mechs circling at close range, and I agree it's because of timing and aiming.. but more because of timing, rather than aiming.

If you've got poor latency (Asia/Australia) like me, you'll have a delay before the PPCs/ballistics actually fire. The delay appears to be equal to 2x your latency (250ms latency means a 500ms delay before firing), after which the shots will come out aimed at the original point you clicked at (they won't follow your crosshair if you re-aim in that 500ms), which can make it very, very hard to hit Light 'Mechs.

I would assume for mid-range latencies (100ms to 180ms or so), it's not nearly as bad, but you might not be able to put your finger on why it's so hard to hit fast-moving close-range targets with PPCs and ballistics. This is why!

The usual travel time for the projectile is there, but it's insignificant at close range. For example, at 50 meters range, a PPC bolt only takes 0.025 seconds to reach the target, but a 50ms ping will delay your PPC shot by 0.1 seconds.. that's what'll make it hard to kneecap the li'l Raven running all over the place.

Lasers, on the other hand, very clearly shoot the instant you press the fire button.

So yeah, ever since PGI gave us the totally awesome Server State Rewind feature, if you have trouble: stick with lasers and try to shoot off a leg.

[M0rpHeu5]

If you are around teammates: Turn and let them see your back as less time as you can, Manuvre in front of your teammates not closer than 150m so they find it easier to shake them off

If you are alone and fast run back to your team

If you are alone and slow get your back in a wall so the cannot cycle you. Patiens, pull the trigger when you are sure to hit them, 2 well placed hight damaging shots(AC10/20,PPC,Gauss) will convince the average light pilot that you are not to be messed with and he'll try to find somethink easier to shoot. If you keep missing untill your gun is ready to shoot again they'll be out of your shight and they'll grow confident while you'll graw impatient and miss more.
Aim low so you get leg hits.
Lasers have nice hit detection
Call for help

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 27 March 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[Mr Blonde]

Counter to light mechs...pray to whatever God you worship. We are coming for you. All your base are belong to us.

[zraven7]

Ok, I play my lil Jenner more than anything else. Here are the things that scare me.

1)SRMs in large quantities. Lights simply do not have the armor needed to sustain multiple hits from SRM clouds, especially below the waist. If a Splatcat even sorta hits a couple of times, we're usually having a bad day.

2)SSRMs. I know that ECM can help remedy this, but if they have it, too, it still stinks. You practically can't dodge them.

3)Pilots good with lasers. Attacking a light with lasers is a little different than attacking other mechs. I know, I use 6 mediums on my F. Unless they are runing directly away from you, you usually do not want to go for a direct, full-duration hit. You want multiple lasers, and you want to do raking shots across the legs. 6 lasers that touch AT ALL do at least 6 damage. You're average light mech has less than 40 points of armor on each leg. If you can do 4 or 5 sweeps on their legs, and get maybe 20 or 30 percent of the lasers damage onto the legs, the light goes down.

[Gaan Cathal]

EmperorMyrf, on 19 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

According to my stats, I am making almost the exact same amount of contact with both basic and pulse lasers, so the advantage there is nonexistent for me.

Whilst the rest of your point is valid, your stats are lying to you. For laser "accuracy" you get a "hit" if even one damage tick lands on the enemy, so it doesn't show the benefit of pulse lasers landing more damage tics/higher% damage on target.

[EmperorMyrf]

Gaan Cathal, on 27 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Whilst the rest of your point is valid, your stats are lying to you. For laser "accuracy" you get a "hit" if even one damage tick lands on the enemy, so it doesn't show the benefit of pulse lasers landing more damage tics/higher% damage on target.

I'm aware of this. I did: total_damage / (times_fired * weapon_damage)

Essentially I found the ratio of the damage I did vs the damage I would have done if I had flawless aim. As explained in a later post of mine, both flavors of laser have around 63% total damage, so the difference is negligible. I don't expect everyone to have the same results, so it's likely anecdotal.

[Gaan Cathal]

EmperorMyrf, on 27 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I'm aware of this. I did: total_damage / (times_fired * weapon_damage)

Essentially I found the ratio of the damage I did vs the damage I would have done if I had flawless aim. As explained in a later post of mine, both flavors of laser have around 63% total damage, so the difference is negligible. I don't expect everyone to have the same results, so it's likely anecdotal.

In that case, carry on.

[Void Angel]

Mr Blonde, on 27 March 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

Counter to light mechs...pray to whatever God you worship. We are coming for you. All your base are belong to us.

You're the reason I yell "Fore!" whenever I plaster a light 'mech with my heavy beam weapons. =)

[Hauser]

EmperorMyrf, on 19 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

According to my stats, I am making almost the exact same amount of contact with both basic and pulse lasers, so the advantage there is nonexistent for me. I usually just stay with basic lasers as they run cooler and weigh less. I'm not sure if it's just me or if everyone is like this, but feel free to check for yourself.
But don't use the accuracy stat. Instead, use total_dmg / (weapon_dmg * shots fired). This represents the percentage of your beams that actually do damage, whereas your accuracy stat is how often any part of a single beam hits your target.

My main light killer as of late has been the AC/20. Once you find how much to lead on them while they circle you, you can hit them near every time. One hit will usually send them running, and if they don't run 2 hits will likely drop one.

This can also be done with the GR, but I seem to have a little trouble finding that sweet spot. Doesn't "feel" the same as an AC/20.

Gaan Cathal, on 27 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Whilst the rest of your point is valid, your stats are lying to you. For laser "accuracy" you get a "hit" if even one damage tick lands on the enemy, so it doesn't show the benefit of pulse lasers landing more damage tics/higher% damage on target.

EmperorMyrf, on 27 March 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

I'm aware of this. I did: total_damage / (times_fired * weapon_damage)

Essentially I found the ratio of the damage I did vs the damage I would have done if I had flawless aim. As explained in a later post of mine, both flavors of laser have around 63% total damage, so the difference is negligible. I don't expect everyone to have the same results, so it's likely anecdotal.

Gaan Cathal, on 27 March 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

In that case, carry on.

Not letting this go just yet.

When used outside of optimal range, lasers do less damage. Yet this shows up as inaccuracy in your formula. To take an extreme example, say you have 100% accuracy with a mlas and fire 10 shots. Yet are only hitting targets at 270+135 meters. You'll do 2.5 damage per shot, so 25 damage total. Yet accuracy comes out as 25 / (10 * 5) = 0.5.

Aside from that, the mech used matters and all that. I had a look at my own stats and I'm doing about 3 damage per hit for both weapons and my accuracy is way up for mediums. Then again I've got my mediums on a 4P and the mpulse on a Awesome. They're used in completely different scenarios.

So yeah I don't think stats can just be used.

Edited by Hauser, 28 March 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[Tahribator]

As a dedicated Spider(ECM and non-ECM variants) pilot, what kills me the fastest are not the LRM boats(seriously, stop wasting ammo), not the Streaks, not AC boats but laser boats.

If I see someone having 4LL in a somewhat mobile chassis(Flame, Catapult, Cataph 3D, Atlas RS comes to mind) I rethink engaging them.

If you are caught alone and you're not a laser boat, just keep picking away at the light. Don't hesitate to use heavy weapons like ERPPC, AC20, Gauss; you will miss a lot, but if you can land a hit the light WILL be crippled. Always keep a backup laser in your build for engaging lights(2ML's at least).

Do not stop, but keep moving to make aiming harder for him. If you back up to a corner and stop, then it's too easy for me to focus on a particular area. Remember lights don't do much damage, they rely on accuracy. If he's circling you, start turning the opposite direction he's turning. Try to counter his moves so he has minimal time to shoot you when he comes back(which involves taking him head on).

[EmperorMyrf]

Hauser, on 28 March 2013 - 04:30 AM, said:

Not letting this go just yet.

When used outside of optimal range, lasers do less damage. Yet this shows up as inaccuracy in your formula. To take an extreme example, say you have 100% accuracy with a mlas and fire 10 shots. Yet are only hitting targets at 270+135 meters. You'll do 2.5 damage per shot, so 25 damage total. Yet accuracy comes out as 25 / (10 * 5) = 0.5.

Yea I understood that that would be included. Also, as mentioned earlier, this doesn't account for spreading damage across components. Because I'm interested in making sure my tonnage is spent well instead of my actual accuracy, I consider the range thing to be a valid component in making sure I'm spending tonnage with results. I still think in most cases I'd rather just have medium lasers, even if only for the increase in range.

[Scromboid]

Dual Gauss to the legs . Just sayin. Took down three lights in a match last night like this. They are much easier to hit when they're legged.

That said, sticking to a group and watching each other is a winning strategy. Those leg shots happened because the lights were swarming on our of our heavies. I flanked, clear my Fire Line and waited for the little ****** to circle. Soon as he did, I led him a little, then BOOM. On a Raven, it takes a few shots... since they already have clan armor, force shields and jedis piloting them, but it still works.

Remember. Teamwork is OP

[RedrumnCoke]

Tahribator, on 28 March 2013 - 04:39 AM, said:

As a dedicated Spider(ECM and non-ECM variants) pilot, what kills me the fastest are not the LRM boats(seriously, stop wasting ammo), not the Streaks, not AC boats but laser boats.

If I see someone having 4LL in a somewhat mobile chassis(Flame, Catapult, Cataph 3D, Atlas RS comes to mind) I rethink engaging them.

If you are caught alone and you're not a laser boat, just keep picking away at the light. Don't hesitate to use heavy weapons like ERPPC, AC20, Gauss; you will miss a lot, but if you can land a hit the light WILL be crippled. Always keep a backup laser in your build for engaging lights(2ML's at least).

Do not stop, but keep moving to make aiming harder for him. If you back up to a corner and stop, then it's too easy for me to focus on a particular area. Remember lights don't do much damage, they rely on accuracy. If he's circling you, start turning the opposite direction he's turning. Try to counter his moves so he has minimal time to shoot you when he comes back(which involves taking him head on).

This. My Flame has 4 large lasers and 19 double heat sinks so it can fire them pretty often. Of all my mechs, the Flame is the one I fear lights the least in. When a light start circling me, I just sweep the legs. Even better, with the long range, I can easily help friendly mechs who have lights circling them.

[Void Angel]

Heh. If he's circling you, it's likely that he's either a newb, being lazy, or that he's a spoiled, cheatin skilled Raven pilot who is simply understandably slow in making adjustments from his totally legitimate playstyle that wasn't dependent on buggy hitboxes at all. At all.

Seriously, though; I'll never do the newbie circle strafe unless you let me. I'll nearly always disengage by jumping over a building or ducking around a hill, then come at you from another angle - or just find someone else to focus fire. See, even if you're, well, kinda stupid, and the newbie circle strafe works on you, it still means that I'm staying in one place and following a predictable movement pattern. Doing that is a great way to receive a charitable donation of relativistic nickel-iron in the nose - or other directionally appropriate orifice.