14 replies to this topic

[Rigiroth]

It requires Battle Value to be implemented along side Elo first off.

The epiphany part comes from the calculation of scores. Each duplicate weapon on a mech increases the BV substantially in comparison to the previous.

For example, a single SRM6 has a BV of 59. Adding another SRM6 to a mech would increase the BV to something like 180 (Double the First), the next could increase the BV to 360 and so on.

The rate of increase could also very based on weapon type and tonnage like the ranges of current weapons do.

A weight class restriction could possibly be factored in to the BV as well so when you are running a low BV Atlas, you don't run in to a high BV light mech.

Airstrikes and arty could effect BV which would make them acceptable in competitive play (although I'm not even going to take a swing at predicting their BV)

This also factors in how much better weapons are in MWO than they are in TT.

The only problem I can see with this is deciding the rates that BV need to increase. That could be solved, possibly, by min/maxing builds and seeing how they perform to decide what goes where. This would also be a great way for PGI to use the community because I'm sure finding min/maxxers (I myself am one of them) wont be hard. They could possibly run it as a long-standing competition where people simply submit builds with feedback.

Thoughts?

[Neolisk]

The idea is interesting and certainly makes sense, in general.

Steemship, on 17 March 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

For example, a single SRM6 has a BV of 59. Adding another SRM6 to a mech would increase the BV to something like 180 (Double the First), the next could increase the BV to 360 and so on.

This, however, does not seem right. Having two SRMs does not mean you are going to win against 1 SRM and one medium laser (for example). Need a deeper thought.

[Rigiroth]

Neolisk, on 17 March 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

The idea is interesting and certainly makes sense, in general.

This, however, does not seem right. Having two SRMs does not mean you are going to win against 1 SRM and one medium laser (for example). Need a deeper thought.

If that is the case, then the increase in BV could start after a set point like 2-3 for SRM6s

[Neolisk]

Steemship, on 18 March 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

If that is the case, then the increase in BV could start after a set point like 2-3 for SRM6s

PGI should thoroughly test everything, for example, hire top playing teams to test various builds like that. All SRMs vs all LRMs etc., before making such conclusions.

[DeadlyNerd]

There's a tiny problem with your suggestion. What about mechs that are native boaters?, like 9M, 8Q and 4P.
You'll also need to add the parameter "native boater of X weapon" as to isolate them from the penalties for non native boaters.

[Caseck]

Economy of scale should apply for multiple weapon systems. 3 SRMs on one mech should have more BPV than three single SRMs on three different mechs...

Edited by Caseck, 18 March 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Neolisk]

If outfitting a mech with all of the same weapon is a winning combination, the game needs rebalance. Not the matchmaking, but the game itself.

[Rigiroth]

Neolisk, on 18 March 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

PGI should thoroughly test everything, for example, hire top playing teams to test various builds like that. All SRMs vs all LRMs etc., before making such conclusions.

It was stated in the original post how they could use the community to find the necessary values.

DeadlyNerd, on 18 March 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

There's a tiny problem with your suggestion. What about mechs that are native boaters?, like 9M, 8Q and 4P.
You'll also need to add the parameter "native boater of X weapon" as to isolate them from the penalties for non native boaters.

A fair point for some mechs, but I think it should only extend to the stock weapons. An Awesome 8Q, for example, fits 3 PPCs stock, but can fit up to 6. The 4th PPC onward should get some sort of penalty (either the penalty of having a fourth or the penalty of having a second above the accepted number [The accepted number coming from weapons that are used in quanities, but are not boats like 2 SRM6s]) To summarize, they should get some advantage in BV reduction, but they shouldn't get a free pass so to speak.

Caseck, on 18 March 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Economy of scale should apply for multiple weapon systems. 3 SRMs one one mech should have more BPV than three single SRMs on three different mechs...

The BV would be calculated per mech before the match making process began. Balancing teams would go from there on a per-match basis.

Neolisk, on 18 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

If outfitting a mech with all of the same weapon is a winning combination, the game needs rebalance. Not the matchmaking, but the game itself.

The problem isn't so much that the mechs are "winning combinations" but that they are going against mechs that are not their equal, even if the pilots piloting them are of equal skill level. Elo as it currently is doesn't address the mech chasis which is the point of BV, and the lack of BV is the problem with Elo. For example, splat cats are devastating mechs, but they are good at only that. The problem with the Splat cat is that they are more than fast enough to close the ground. The weight of the XL Engine and the SRM6s would combine to send the splat cat in to higher Elo games where it is going against more skilled pilots who are better a keeping mechs at range. Going along with the splat cat, they are currently insanely overpowered because of a glitch with missile weapons that causes splash damage to deal full damage (they are removing this, I believe, tomorrow). But of course, weapon balances are an on-going process that do need to be acknowledged. It would be better to see Elo w/ BV before they start changing lots of wepaons. (I sound like PGI with that last one)

[Caseck]

Neolisk, on 18 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

If outfitting a mech with all of the same weapon is a winning combination, the game needs rebalance. Not the matchmaking, but the game itself.

Life is not balanced.

[ohtochooseaname]

Boating necessarily reduces the versatility of Mech for increased effectiveness in certain situations. In the current game, most maps are brawler heaven, which makes brawler boats/poptarts effective. With the advent of more maps and possibly more game modes, versatility becomes more of a requirement and boating becomes a serious disadvantage. This is how you balance things out to make the game work properly.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Neolisk, on 18 March 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

If outfitting a mech with all of the same weapon is a winning combination, the game needs rebalance. Not the matchmaking, but the game itself.

Amen

[Rigiroth]

ohtochooseaname, on 18 March 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Boating necessarily reduces the versatility of Mech for increased effectiveness in certain situations. In the current game, most maps are brawler heaven, which makes brawler boats/poptarts effective. With the advent of more maps and possibly more game modes, versatility becomes more of a requirement and boating becomes a serious disadvantage. This is how you balance things out to make the game work properly.

Doing this would take too long and it would only serve to mask the issue without actually addressing it.

[Neolisk]

Steemship, on 18 March 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

An Awesome 8Q, for example, fits 3 PPCs stock, but can fit up to 6. The 4th PPC onward should get some sort of penalty

What's the problem with current heat penalty? Do you really think 6 PPC is the ultimate winner? Did you watch a video on Youtube with 6-PPC Stalker? Note the damage done there is somewhat average.

[Rigiroth]

Neolisk, on 18 March 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

What's the problem with current heat penalty? Do you really think 6 PPC is the ultimate winner? Did you watch a video on Youtube with 6-PPC Stalker? Note the damage done there is somewhat average.

If you had read my original post, you would've read that the penalty is an increase in BV because of the nature of putting six of one weapon on to the mech. Further more, that was just an example to address the notion of mechs that boat weapons in lore.

[Rigiroth]

Caseck, on 18 March 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Life is not balanced.

Looks like the 50s equivalent of the PPC stalker.